Some Responses to "Gays--No Easy Answers"
Hundreds of people have sent e-mail responses to "Gays--No Easy Answers." Here are some of them (names of people and places have been deleted unless permission was given to include):
While perusing the Internet today, I came across a link to your website and your sermon about homosexuality and the church (http://theparson.net/gays.html). What you had to say really interested me and peaked my curiosity. Before going into my thoughts about the sermon, let me introduce myself.
My name is James Deaton and I am a 25-year-old technical writer from the Chicago suburbs. I am a follow of Jesus Christ. I am also a homosexual. I have been on a spiritual journey (and, I am still on this journey...it will never end in this lifetime) the past three years. After graduating from a conservative Christian university (Cedarville College--www.cedarville.edu) with degrees in English and Bible in June of 2000, I moved to Chicago to accept a job at 3Com Corporation (as a technical writer). I also moved here to discover myself. I was disillusioned with the Church.....with myself.......with my direction in life....with my sexual orientation......with lots of things. I think college forces those things to surface...a person's worldview and belief structure begins to solidify in those years...from my experience. There's so much more to my story...and, when I have the time...I'd like to share more of it with you.
Also, in your biography, you say you graduated from Berea College. Actually, I went there for a semester and a half in 1996/1997. You can read about my experiences there (in regards to my "coming out" process) here...http://www.whosoever.org/v7i3/deaton.html
In regards to your sermon, I want to thank you so much for your voice of reason and compassion. When I got to the second paragraph... "The first thing, and the main thing, I want to say is that we need to forget about simple answers. There are none. We are fooling ourselves if we think there are."...I couldn't believe it. My heart began to resonate with your words. This is the voice I've been looking for...this is the voice of Christ...this is the voice of reason...this is exactly what I've been feeling. I get so tired debating the "biblical" and "medical" and "psychological" evidences, or lack thereof, for and against homosexuality. Is it compatible with Christianity? I believe it is. I believe wholeheartedly when you say "Our message is ultimately, 'I'm not okay, and you're not okay. But that's okay.'" We truly live in a broken, fragmented world.
I know in my own life......I've tried so hard to live a life pleasing to God. I know for a fact...since coming out...I'm am so much more honest than I was before. It was like a burden was lifted off of my shoulders. It was like a breath of fresh air came into my stagnant heart and soul. I know that I am loved by God...despite all of the imperfections in my life. This is definitely a difficult subject, but silence will not make it go away. I think this was the most tragic thing about growing up in a conservative, Baptist church (Free Will Baptist). Silence. It's probably deadlier than direct, verbal abuse. I think sex, in general, is a taboo topic, but homosexuality is the GREAT TABOO TOPIC. Yet, when I am honest with my coworkers...and my familiy......and my friends....they are all shocked by the fact that I'm gay. They say to me, "I wouldn't have known it in a million years." And, I tell them...."I try to live my life with integrity and honesty...I don't live it for anyone else but God. I just want to be myself.....and I am myself most of the time. This is the real James."
And, that should be our motto...honesty is ALWAYS the best policy.
One last thing (I appreciate your patience and willingness to listen, also), I am the coordinator/director for Soulforce here in Chicago. Soulforce is an interfaith movement seeking to end the spiritual violence caused by religious organizations. We hold fast to the teachings of Jesus, the Jewish prophets, Gandhi, M.L. King, Jr., Oscar Romero, Dorothy Day, and many other spiritual sages and "voices in the wilderness." We hold fast to the nonviolent principles exemplified by the lives of these people. If you are interested in learning about Soulforce, check out our national website -- www.soulforce.org/. I think you would find it fascinating at least. And, like always...we certainly can agree to disagree...but always love the person for who they are trying to be.
I also enjoyed your article "A Raging Moderate." I loved your quote "We "raging moderates" embrace the path of tension, as uncomfortable as it is, because we recognize that many of the issues we face are too complex for simple formulation, even for the application of labels." I don't like to be labeled as "gay" or "Christian" or "liberal" or whatever is out there. I want to be known as James Deaton, a man searching for truth and attempting to live the life of true love.
I thank you, again, for your life and your message.
May the peace of God reign in your heart forever...
Peace to you, my brother...
--James Deaton
Schaumburg, IL
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Thank you for your sermon! It is Christmas day and I am home alone feeling sorry for myself. I have few friends because I am afraid to get close to anyone. I have a loving family, but don't know HOW loving they would be if they knew about me! I am a 25 year old male that will probably remain in the closet all of his life. I have so many profound things I would like to say to family and friends that would surely change their attitude about homosexuality, but I cannot take that risk. It could mean losing some of them!
I guess your sermon did not give me any answers. I dont think it was supposed to. I do know it showed me that all the thoughts that go through my head EVERY DAY are not crazy and that I am not the only one that is aware of it. One thing you did not mention, ,unless I missed it, was the fact that we are constantly facing the thought of suicide. Days like today, especially, I think about it! I only wish I could go to a psychiatrist/hypnotist and get rid of these "evil" thoughts!
I don't know what will become of me tomorrow or the next day.... I only know it helped to come across your sermon. It shows me that SOMEONE knows the pain I am dealing with. I wish you could some how post that sermon on every front door in America and beg that everyone read it and really listen to what you have to say.
It is a shame that we cannot talk about what hurts us so... even with our families. I have tried to talk to my mom about it, but after 5 years it has been swept under the carpet and she is still waiting for me to introduce her to my next girlfriend and possible future wife. I have given up on talking to anyone about it! So, I continue to live my life a secret. I have a happy exterior, but a hurt inside that will not go away. One day, probably long after I have left this World, people will be more sensitive to this pain!
Again, thank you and I am sorry for "babbling" to you. Even that helps, even if you read it, delete it and never think about it again.....I got a little bit of it off my chest!
Merry Christmas!!
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Its obvious you have a very low view of Scripture, in that case why use it for an "Appeal to Authority at all"?
Why not just continue with your humanistic pop psychology?
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I ran across your sermon while cruising the internet, and sceptically thought I'd read it, just to reinforce my bias against religious sermons on homosexuality (I'm an ex-Seventh-day Adventist, still recovering after 15 years of being ousted from my church-related job, my religion, wife, etc.). What a pleasant surprise. I cannot say I agree with every nuance you express, but your overall tolerance and sense of the complexity of the issue is refreshing, and it uplifted me to hear that attitude coming from a Baptist minister. Thanks!
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I read your thoughtful, well-written sermon with great interest. I am fortunate enough to have lived both in New York City and San Francisco, rather than the Bible Belt, and in my coming out did not lose the support of "friends, family, and the church," but that is not to say that I haven't had a hard time wrestling with my sexual identity. I find myself perpetually ill at ease with the compulsively promiscuous, appearance-obsessed, recklessly self-indulgent gay lifestyle in such supposedly "enlightened" cosmopolitan meccas, yet I am equally uncomfortable with the xenophobic, science-phobic, thinking-phobic, narrow-minded, bigoted culture of the conservative churches leading the crusade for "family values." I did try a Bible-thumping support group for gays who wanted to change, but apart from the odious othordoxy in their literalist interpretation of the Bible, the group was frequently attended by these aggressively cheerful, young, slightly overweight, "Christian" women who seemed excessively eager to hasten our deliverance into a "Christian" marriage. I couldn't help but see Hell on Earth.
To be totally honest, I know that deep down inside, what I am looking for in another guy is ultimately what I am looking for in myself, yet I am also driven by a passion to live in this world, to know what it is to love someone deeply, to have passionate sex, to experience joy and heartbreak, anger and grief and ecstasy, even at the risk of making a complete fool of myself, which I often do.
That is why I have chosen for now to be the way I am, because I so value the experience of living the way most Christian denominations don't. And maybe that has been the real failure of the American Church, Catholic and Protestant, moderate and Holy Rolling, to preserve so-called "family values" over the past thirty years. I mean, come on, if this piously puritanical anti-septic orthodoxy was so great to begin with, then why did it lose it's power and control over society?
I now live in a very conservative part of the country, though not to far from the cosmopolitan (deleted) nearby right across the border. What strikes me most about my conservative Christian neighbors is how materialistic they are, absorbed in television and shopping malls, as if this were what made up a real life.
Yet, once again, I can't honestly say the brutal meat markets of gay urban hangouts is much better.
So, maybe, Pastor, you can take a good long hard look at your religion and the lifestlye of your congregation and ask yourself:"Is this it?"
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I just wanted to tell you I appreciate your sensitive treatment of the subject of homosexuality and the church. My husband of eight years recently left me because of struggles with his sexual identity and past behaviors I never even had a clue about -- even though we had grown up in an Assembly of God church together and always been active in church.
It is the most difficult battle of both our lives for sure. People don't understand how I could still care for him after what he has done. Sometimes I don't understand it, and we did go ahead and decide to get divorced. I wonder how many other people sitting in church every Sunday are living in the kind of torment he has lived in since age 11. Or how many women are married to good men with horrible problems.
Thanks for letting me vent. Please continue to write about this very difficult subject.
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Pastor -- I don't know if I should be responding to the sermon on the web since I'm not of the same religious faith as you, and I doubt therefore that we'd be able to find much common ground underneath any points we might discuss.
I'd just like to take issue with what I believe is the core logical fallacy behind your thoughts on the matter. You say,
>The homosexual knows that in light of that most basic fact his or her sexuality is distorted, and he or she grieves over that.
Yet later you say,
>society needs to somehow express its clear preference for heterosexuality
The only reason for a gay person to grieve over his or her sexuality is if society expresses a preference for heterosexuality. If society would stop expressing this preference (what you call preference I call discrimination) -- that is, legalize gay marriage and encourage the stability of gay relationships and refrain from gay bashing and discrimination in jobs, housing, religion, community, politics, and other facets of life -- then gays would have no reason to "grieve." However, I would also point out that there are now plenty of communities of straights and gays together where such discrimination is disappearing (New York, San Fran, South Florida, New Jersey, Massecheusetts), and so most gay people I know are, on average, relatively as happy or happier than their heterosexual counterparts as they have done the extra work of reflecting on the purpose of their lives and taking their lives and spirituality into their own hands.
I think that what strikes me as particularly odd is your idea that sexuality is only for procreation. I know no actual people (regardless of their sexual orientation) who have actually felt this way about their sexuality in contemporary times. And historically, I know no religion that actually states this explicitly, although I conceed that it did seem to become a part of the Christian religion during monastic times. It seems to me that sexuality is also tied up with expressions of love and intimacy -- and surely the sexual part is just one small part of being either gay or straight. The larger picture is about primary love relationships that go well beyond and particular sexual acts. And clearly with the proliferation of fertilaztion drugs, artificial insemination, etc. this doesn't seem to be a real issue for the Christian church when it comes toward straight people. If it were, then I believe that the Christian church should picket infertal heterosexual marriages and make these illegal as well -- that's the only consistent position. Heterosexuals would have to be tested to make sure they were fertile before the state would allow them to get married. If they were infertal and tried to get married or have sex they should be arrested or at the very least fired from their jobs, banned from the military, etc. That's how gay people are treated in large measure now.
So tell me, if the reason that gay relationships are to be discouraged is because the sexuality of the relationship doesn't produce offspring, why doesn't the church also condemn infertal heterosexual relationships and make sure these are illegal and discouraged?
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Dear David,
This morning I downloaded your article off the www (Gays--No Easy Answers) and the only thing I can think to say is BRAVO, BRAVO,BRAVO!!!!!
For lack of time, I will not go into an exhaustive explanation of my own thoughts and experiences but will tell you that as a 32 christian "gay" man who has never embraced the "I was born this way; its a gift of God" mentality......reading your article was very refreshing. The thing which I suppose I appreciate more than any other is the fact that you readily struggle with the issues involved and come to no simple solutions.
As a thinking individual I write and journal frequently and I must say (in an unpatronizing way) that your thoughts probably more closely reflect my own than anyone whom I've read. It is very annoying to me having only the two "simple minded" extremes---- either the right wing "homosexuality is wrong therefore we will not give them the same latitude which we have grown to show the divorce christian heterosexual population" and the other extreme which would make God and his Word irrelevant with a whole hearted embrace of homosexuality and all it encompasses. At times, it may become difficult to strike just the right balance but I agree that homosexuality is not natural.....(as you pointed out--just look at natural law) but by the same token it doesn't change the fact that if I didn't believe the Bible I could easily believe that "gay" is perfectly "natural" for me.
I was most appreciative of the eunach and the coorelation between his salvation and old testament "uncleaness".....I had never seen that before and it was really refreshing to see an old testament outcast (like the homosexuals) fully forgiven and accepted by God through the person of Jesus Christ.
I have been to varying degrees involved in ex-gay ministries and attempting to come to resolution of this issue for sometime now and I'm sure you've heard this before but I'll say it again......changing ones sexual orientation and/or the responces to it are probably the greatest challenge a person faces......for me some 5 years after first going to a councelor and revealing my deep dark secret, I wonder how much (if any) progress I have made. One thing is for sure, my false hope of easy solutions has long ago vanished!
I struggle endlessly between the hope that I can one day be at peace living my life alone , in that place outside of homosexuality, but I also want some very close male friends and for me the monogomous relationship thing is always in the back of my mind and then of course there are times when I end up acting out physically with another man (although thats the one area where some progress does appear clear --- from many years ago when I first began therapy and acting out numerous times a day was not uncommon;--- even as I was a well liked young man in my local PCA conservative church congregation).
For me there are no easy answers and so I don't know how my views will differ next year or ten years from now ;but at 32, I am human and very capable of very great sins .........I struggle, work through, scream, pray, go out to bars , almost give up, journal, struggle and know that I'm grossly insufficient and but for God's grace I'm doomed. Ultimately, I think its believing ,that in spite of a thousand things which I don't understand, God is good.
And in his grace I shall hopefully continue to struggle and wrestle ;but God willing, hopefully not give up.
Also please feel free to bounce any ideas or thoughts which you have off me....I would love to have a christian to coorespond with who is beyond the "simple solutions" mentality on a range of issues including but not limited to homosexuality.
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I am a Catholic in Taiwan. Your sermon -"Gays--No Easy Answers" really touched my heart. Therefore, I ask your permission to tranalate this sermon in Chinese to share with my friends. Please inform me if it is possible. Thank you very much!
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I am writing to you in response to your sermon which was placed on the internet "Gays---No Easy Answers; A Christian Response". I can only say, thank you for presenting information which is worth reading and is of quality material about this very complex issue.
I am a young college male who has struggled with my sexual orientation for a great deal of my life. I have never spoke with anyone about this "closeted" area of my life before. I know that I am a homosexual, but I have not had the courage nor the appropriate opportunity to speak about it with anyone. I have never felt confident about speaking about my homosexuality with another gay person because I have tended to have a lack of trust of the homosexuals which I know. I feel that the gay persons I have known are typical of the homosexual stereotype persons who have few religious and moral values. I find myself to be an individual who has a high standard of both religious and moral values. However, I currently have a friend who is gay whom I greatly admire. I know that he has moral and religious values. I have just had a difficult time bringing up the subject to him. Your sermon aided me a great deal with the means by which to approach him.
I have not yet spoken with him, but I hope to in the near future. Yes, homosexuality is the most difficult issue I have ever had to face in my life. Choosing a college and choosing a major were both difficult, but not nearly this difficult. Furthermore, I have consulted library resources written about the issue of homosexuality, and I have found that there is very little information with regard to Biblical interpretation. Many of the authors simply explain about how they "came out of the closet". Many of their reasons were based on feelings of pure lust and nothing more. I am looking for a loving and compassionate relationship, and this sermon reinforced the ideas which I have felt all along.
Thank you again for presenting this material. I feel that God works through people to reach others. Perhaps this is what he has done in this instance.
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Dear Mr. Hess,
I just read your sermon and I was very glad to see that all American Baptist Churches do not feel the same. I am an 18 year old College student at the University of (deleted). I've been going to an American Baptist church in my hometown in (deleted) every week for as long as we've lived there. (10 yrs) I've always blindly believed everything that was told to me and never questioned anything. That's what I was told to do. I continued to do this until the summer before I went to college.
I *really* tried to be straight but I just couldn't. All through high school I denied all the feelings I had for male friends. I just thought it was one of those sinful thoughts that goes through everyone's head. It turned out that none of my friends had these feelings. I became very depressed because I could not stop the feelings I was having. I also could not have those feelings for girls no matter how hard I tried.
The summer before my first year at college I met someone who was openly gay. This was unheard of in my town (I thought). We had a strictly platonic friendship and he taught me that I was not the only person in the world to have these feelings and that there were many other gay people in my town.
When I came to school, I was really nervous about what the situation for gays would be on campus. It turned out better than I could've ever imagined. I am a voice major and my private instructor is openly gay ... and a christian. I had a really hard time understanding this and we've talked about it a lot. I finally realized that I am who I am and that it's ok to be that way.
My first semester was great! I was doing great in school and was in a steady relationship with really nice guy. I went home for Christmas break and went to my old church. (No one at home knows I'm gay except my family and some friends, by the way) Out of every sermon the pastor gave while I was there, he had something bad to say about homosexuals. I just sat there letting it pass over and paying attention to the rest of the sermon, but it happened every week. I really don't know what to do. My church is very loving and supportive of me in everything I do, but I truely feel that if I stand up for myself I will not be welcome there anymore. I am *very* upset about this. After all these years, I don't feel welcome anymore. I am however *very* greatful for the values that were taught to me by my church and I do carry them over into my relationships with men. I just don't know what to do.
This has turned out to be a really long letter. I just wanted to share my experience with my church and homosexuality in general. I was just really happy to see that not all churches feel the same way.
I'm sending you the URL for an article I found on the web about this topic and what the American Baptist Church organization has done. It's http://www.outnow.com/77/church2.html .
Thank you for your time and your sermon.
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I appreciate the candor with which you expressed your understanding (or lack thereof) of grace in the sermon you have placed on the internet. I have to say, however, that it seems to me that your words entirely miss the mark. As a gay minister, let me assure you that what I am is in fact a gift from God and my sexuality is celebrated by the hosts of heaven as is everyone elses -- as was Jesus's. I'm actually rather embarassed that you made it clear that you are American Baptist. Those of us who strive to welcome everyone have a hard enough time without the reiteration of the ageless ignorance of the church universal.
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I read your piece about homosexuality and I certainly feel your struggle and the writing, again, resurrected my own struggle. Although you tried to fairly provide analogies that may speak to the struggle, you, like many, left the basic challenge unanswered. I would encourage you to rethink two areas. One, the idea that Jesus had nothing to say, specifically,about homosexuality and, two, the notion that because there is perversion in heterosexuality, homosexual perversion is more understandable.
I think it is dangerous to make even moderate conclusions on what Jesus did not say. Really, he may have said something, it just was not caught by the writers. One would beg the question, why did the writers not catch or record a statement of Jesus? Perhaps, most of what was caught and recorded was the most controversial, that which was brought into conflict with the "norm" of the day. Homosexuality could have been commonly understood, among Jesus and the writers, as not acceptable, period, even though it was rampant. Jewish law was strongly against it, Jesus did not come to change the law. Of course the obvious argument, here, is to deliver slight, if any, credence to other popular behavior of today simply because Jesus said nothing about it then. Much if not all of what Jesus said has to be projected on the backdrop of the law in operation at the time. Many drug users have used the "Jesus didn't say not to smoke pot" theory to support their unhealthy, self-destructive behavior. We understand that doing so is not loving yourself.
The other reflection that evidence of heterosexual perversion is supportive of homosexual perversion is simply saying that we are in a fallen state. The fact that we are does not excuse behavior that is displeasing to God. There would be little need for the church if this were not so. Our sin is reconciled in nothing less than Jesus' sacrifice for us, not in how much other sin there is in the world or our lives. Sin does not excuse sin. Jesus excuses sin. Therein lies the real question here, is homosexuality sin? Is it a behavior that separates one from God? I think so. In part, this conclusion comes out of what I feel those who struggle with this issue overlook, conversation with those who have "crossed over". 100% of former homosexuals who now have freedom from such have shared with me that it is a sin. Who would know that best than they? More vehemently, they would also praise those who did not pat them on the back, in an acceptance of pop culture way, and show false love by trying to figure them out instead of speaking boldly against the sin, as one would any other oppressed state of sinfulness. Too often the image I get is one of talking about the challenge and not to the challenge.
Thanks for the time.
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I just wanted to say that this sermon was biblical, and should be looked upon by every church in the world who profess christianity. Reading it, I felt like you had given gays the answer. It was well writen, well thought, and Godly. Unfortunetly, It's not an easy answer (like you said). I happen to be gay (I am not remotely proud of it), It is hard. I know that I try to block those feelings out of my mind, but somehow they keep comming back. A few years back I took the approach that "God made me that way", but like you said there are babies born blind. I'm sure God didn't want them to be that way, but they are.
I just wanted to tell you that you seem like a spiritual man and that I would like to write back and forth. I have some other things to talk to you about. MY pastor is conservative and wants no part with gays, he just doesn't understand, I mean I love him dearly but his flaw is his view on homosexuals.
I am 19 and I go to (deleted) college in (deleted). My parents don't that I have these feelings because they basically feel the same way that most conservatives think and I don't want them to know. I have friends to talk to about it , but i need somone who knows God the way God is. Too many people and churches mold God into what they want and I don't like that and God probably doesn't like it either.
Sincerely, In Christ,
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Hey wanted you to know that I read you essay about no easy answers. Isn't that the truth. I grew up in the church course I'm only 21 now but I've left because I am gay. I"m not even ashamed. I miss the church. I always planned on being a pastor my self, did a year of Bible school, then I got kicked out because I was infact Gay. I don't even know about what I feel. I know that I am in love with my boyfriend very much and for the first time in my life I am very happy, I"m no longer living a lie.
God Bless your ministry, you seem like your pretty cool dude,
Hey I really like the line about curing diabetes, prettys sweet.
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I just finished reading your sermon "No Easy Answers". I have to tell you up front that I disagree with a lot of what you've written; however, I was very pleased to see the extent to which you went to approach answers to the various questions posed. It appears that you have indeed spent much time considering the many issues involved in discussion of homosexuality and the church. It is all too easy to find articles and sermons about the "evils" of homosexuality, so it was refreshing to see a writer, especially one from within a chuch, who actually takes time to wrestle with the questions in a more productive way. Even though I don't agree with most of your points, I do feel that you've given the matter of homosexuality a lot of valuable consideration by looking at both societal and biblical aspects. Some writers today seem to completely ignore the fact that we are living in the 20th century without lambs, asses and chariots. Your sermon shows that you are very much aware of what's going on in the community around you, and that is perhaps the greatest step a religous leader can take before looking at some very difficult questions.
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Just a short note to say that the sermon you wrote is very well written. I am not gay by any mean, but I do have a few friends that are. It make me sad to hear people putting them down because of their lifestyles, when in reality they could be one of the best friend you'll ever have.
I am married and have four kids of my own, ranging in age 9 on up to 18. In our family we have a couple of nephew that are open and out of the closet, and I don't believe there is a family out there that can say they don't have any homosexual relatives. They go thru alot of pain in trying to keep their relationship with the family. As I've said, we do not condone their activities and they know it, but we do not treat them like they were poison. My wife and I are the only couple that will greet them into our home beside their mother. I can sympathy with what they have to go through. It's not easy.
Again, I enjoyed reading the sermon. Thanks for giving some new insight from the christain viewpoints. It will provide some new discussions in our church. Many of our friends in the church are very judgemental toward the gays.
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I appreciate your balance. I also recognize that you have given the subject much thought (no doubt much more than I), and I express my opinions humbly.
I fear the stance expressed in your article,
"Our practical advice for the gay Christian is change your orientation if you can. If not, be celibate if you can. If not, be as moral (i.e. monogamous) as you can."
may be used as a "cop out" by many. Many of God's Biblical mandates were virtually impossible without the continual empowering of the Holy Spirit (e.g., turn the other cheek, overcome evil with good, love your enemies, and so forth). Shy of heaven, we will always wrestle with the old nature within. I struggle with lust. I have gained control over my sexual thoughts for certain periods of time from minutes to perhaps weeks or months, but the struggle has remained, and I have no confidence that I will ever change (i.e, be freed from it altogether). So, I must continue to resist and wage war against the flesh. If indeed homosexual activity is sin, then the (debatable) inability to change is no license for acceptability. Nor does the difficulty of remaining celibate afford any relief from the wrongness of sin. I remained celibate until I was married at 28. I realize that is not a lifetime, but had I not found the woman God had for me to marry, I would be celibate still. I know many people who have remained celibate for entire lives. It is certainly difficult, and difficulty is certainly no excuse for compromise.
I suppose in essence I agree with you, but feel it is important to stress that the word of God may not be compromised under any situation.
I also recognize that the church's response to homosexuals has been entirely unacceptable in its rejection of the individual. I commend you for not taking the easy road (either easy road!), but really wrestling with the issue.
The reason I initially started to write you is to share a couple of resources available on the WWW concerning this issue. The Christian Research Institute has made some pertinent documents available at the following URL's:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0053a.txt
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0107a.txt
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0108a.txt
You may be aware of these, but I thought I'd send them just in case.
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You strike me as someone who is struggling with the issue of homosexuality and it's place in the Christianity. I would guess that you have always considered homosexuality to be wrong, but have recently had an experiance - perhaps getting to know someone who is gay - that has made you challenge that old belief system and come to the realization that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. But you're still not there completely...you don't quite know how to let go of those old ingrained beliefs. And I would guess that you're not very comfortable with where you are right now. I hope that you can resolve that struggle with an open heart and an open mind.
Let me tell you a little about myself before I comment on your sermon, so you'll understand where I coming from. I am 34 and have been really struggling with what place the church has in my life. I am still struggling with feeling accepted by the Church - I find that I'm very distrustful, and for good reason. I've been going to a Baptist church for the past 3 years - it's the first church that I've stepped foot in since I came out when I was 18. I was raised Methodist in a religious family who strongly believes that homosexuality is a sin. I've known I was gay since I was very young and am very comfortable with my sexual orientation. I'm in a committed monogomous relationship with a wonderful woman who is very religious - she's why I've gone back to church. She's going to seminary right now. She also has 2 daughters from a previous marriage, so I've had the opportunity to co-parent them. They are great - very loving and accepting - and they are shocked when they find that anybody could have a problem with homosexuality.
I wish that Jesus had said something very clearly about homosexuality, so that we could have saved from all the grief that the Church has so willingly imposed on gays and lesbians, and continues to impose to this day. Perhaps he did say something, but it was never recorded, or it was lost somewhere along the way. Well, regardless of what Jesus may have said or not said, we have minds and hearts and perhaps we can figure this out for ourselves.
As a first comment on your sermon, I agree with you that there are few easy answers to anything in life. Sexuality itself is not the clear cut dichotomy that you portrayed in your sermon - I believe that there is a spectrum of sexuality in which humanity is distributed in a gaussian curve from completely straight at one end, and completely gay at the other, sort of like this: (drawing deleted)
It's rather difficult to draw a Guassian distribution in ASCII, but hopefully you get the idea. The mean could be closer to the center - this is just a guess. The important thing is that there would be very few people that are 100% gay or 100% straight. Of course, to acknowlege this requires being very honest with yourself - something few people are willing to do. Anyway, this is what makes sense to me, and I believe that research such as the Kindsey (sp?) report backs it up.
Now, onto your sermon...
>Thho wished that they were gay.
>The truth is, all of us, straight and gay, know fundamentally that the >natural purpose of sex, though not the only one, is biological reproduction
"Though not the only one" is the big thing that you should remember here. Sex comes out of love for the person that you are with - it is a natural and very powerful statement of that love, a time when two people become connected on a level that the intellect can not provide. If the only reason was reproduction, then love and monogomy would be meaningless. If fact, love and monogomy would be detrimental to greater propagation of the species.
> The homosexual knows that in light of that most basic fact his or her > sexuality is distorted, and he or she grieves over that.
I find this to be insulting and very hetrosexually based. It seems the only place that this statement can stem from is the presumtion that homosexuality is wrong, and therefore is a distortion of what is right. I think it is impossible to view homosexuality objectively when one comes from this foundation.
And even if you take it on the premise that homosexuality is wrong because it does not lead to reproduction of the species, who's to say that this is not also a natural way to ultimately protect the species? Perhaps nature intends some of the species to not be tied to the demands of childrearing in order to provide other needed services to the species such as leadership, medicine, physical protection, longterm planning. Who knows? Not a strong argument, I know, but I thought I'd throw in for what it's worth. It's something that I've considered from time to time, but haven't truely embraced.
> They grieve that they will never be able to know the full complementary >love of a person of the opposite sex.
This is also insulting and seems to be based in a real ignorance of the love between a committed homosexual couple. You make it sound like it is inferior to the love in a hetrosexual relationship. I would suggest that you re-think this. I could as easily assume that hetrosexuals grieve that they will never be able to know the full complementary love of a person of the same sex.
> They grieve that they can never have children.
There's a real baby boom going on right now in the gay and lesbian community. And ALL of these babies are very planned and very wanted, believe me. As a matter of fact, I hope to have a baby soon myself.
>We do not believe that God ever intends any of His people to be >homosexual. We believe people are gay not because they choose >to be so, but because all of nature is fallen and out of wack.
I strongly disagree with this. I believe that there is nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality, although that is clearly what you are saying. Being homosexual is not to be "fallen and out of wack". It's just the society surrounding it that is out of whack.
>Think how hard it must be for a gay person to live a purely monogamous >life without the blessing of, or any support from the church >and society.
Yes, it is difficult to live without any acceptance or positive acknowlegement of my relationship. However, this does not mean that I should just give it up because it is hard. I love my partner completely and I hope that our relationship lasts for the rest of of our lives. I consider us to be married. If Hawaii legalizes gay marriages as expected, my family and I are going to Hawaii as soon as we can. What I would like is for society to recognize that homosexuality is not a sin and for there to be the same support for homosexual relationships as there is for hetrosexual ones. I had hoped that the Church would respond before the state by providing ceremonies that bless relationships, but I have found that although there are pastors who believe that this is right thing to do, they are fearful of losing their jobs if they were to perform one.
> To be sure, a eunuch, a man who has been castrated, and a homosexual > are not the same thing, but there are similarities. Neither can > function fully as a heterosexual person.
This is again judgementally touting hetrosexuality as the ideal and homosexuality as an inferior defect. I function fully as I am - I do not need to be hetrosexual in order to feel whole.
>Can the church handle this issue in a way that is compassionate and true >to the biblical teaching that sexuality should be fully expressed only >in a lifelong monogamous heterosexual relationship?
Where does the Bible say this? I believe that this is your interpretation of the Bible's teaching. Be careful about portraying it as a fact. Also, why not a lifelong homosexual relationship? I believe that you are missing the fact that hetrosexual and homosexual relationships are the same. The only difference are the genders involved. In my relationship, we still have to go to the grocery store, mop the floor, take the kids to karate, soccor, basketball, and piano, fix dinner, pay taxes, have the family over for Christmas and Thanksgiving, go to work, find time to be a family and be a couple. We have to keep our lines of communication open so we can work on things in the relationship before they become a problem. We celebrate anniversaries and birthdays. And yes, we have sex. But I get tired of people thinking only about the sexual aspect of our relationship. ALL of our relationship is about two people loving and caring for each other. Sexually, as well as in every other way. And I find that my relationship is very compassionate and true.
>The church has no simple answers for you either, but we do grieve with you.
I would like more than grieving. I would like understanding, respect, acceptance, courage, and action. At least you are asking some of the right questions, and that is a start. The church as come pretty far in the past 15 years on this issue. However, it still has an incredibly long way to go and I find it very hard to remain patient.
I'm glad you posted this sermon so we could have a chance to talk - feel free to e-mail me to talk further if you want. I bet you get a lot of mail on this subject, so I won't take it personally if I don't hear from you. I just glad to talk to someone in the Baptist religion about homosexuality - as I said earlier, being in a church as been a real struggle for me. Luckily I found a church that is caring and intelligently open minded. My partner and I are the only openly gay couple in the church, though, so it's a bit of a strain.
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Your sermon was thoughtful, caring and addressed many of the issues that gay people face in our society today. I was surprised by the compassion you expressed and was touched by what seemed to be a true concern for our gay brothers and sisters. When I first decided to read your sermon, I was expecting the conservative point of view. I had almost lost faith that any pulpit was still preaching that Jesus in fact welcomed all sinners and that He did not exclude anyone. In this day and age when the press provides so much coverage to the "Christian Right Wing" and we have men running for president that state that they would not allow any gays in their cabinet and the entire Republican field pledging to fight gay marriages you are a light in the dark. I will be printing this out and showing it to my wife ane will show my friends.
Thank you
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That is a sick, sick sermon.
You say that many gays would like to change. I believe you have no valid evidence for that. Certainly *some* would like to change, but usually it is because they find themselves oppressed by society, church, and family that do not accept them. Almost all of the gays I've personally met have no desire to change and I suspect that if the attitudes of others towards gays were to change, then very few gays would be interested in changing themselves. If I'm right, then you grossly distort the truth by preaching that "many" gays want to change.
The fundamental fact that the church needs to learn is that being gay and living as a gay person is neither unethical nor immoral. Living a gay life is not inherently hurtful to anyone; nor is it incompatible with devotion to God. Once the church accepts this fact, it can then deal with gay people as it deals with people generally. There won't be a special problem dealing with gays.
The church has a long history of bigotry. Its treatment of gays is just one of the chapters in that history.
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Dear Rev. Hess,
I want to thank you, first of all, for a very thoughtful sermon on a very difficult topic. Far too many Christians, by way of remaining "in the world but not of it," choose to live in ignorant fear (and hatred?) of open homosexuals and what it means to be gay. I so often find myself summoning the patience to remember that I, too, crave a "simple answer" much of the time--but you're right, there are none.
Well, that's not quite true.
There is one simple answer I've found, Pastor Hess. When asked "what is the greatest commandment," Jesus answered quite simply: Love. It doesn't get much more simple than that. And yet what a powerful answer! And how often we are given the opportunity to obey that commandment! In any and all of our dealings with one another--gay or straight--we are COMMANDED to LOVE one another. And that may mean going out of our way, becoming ritually unclean, and giving up our offering money to pay an innkeeper for his services until our return....
Pastor Hess, I've read your sermon and the addendum several times through, and I've spent most of today thinking about your points. And yet I can't get past one detail. You say that "the natural purpose of sex... is biological reproduction." This is indeed true. But would you be willing to say that the natural purpose of HUMANITY is biological reproduction? Are YOU sexually "distorted" because you have been given the gift of celibacy?
It strikes me odd that you, a heterosexual, should "grieve" for gays because they will never "be able to know the full complementary love of a person of the opposite sex." From my point of view as a homosexual, the love of a woman is not at all complementary. My spiritual and sexual being is complemented by interaction with my Companion, (deleted). Wouldn't it be silly of me to pity you because you'd never have the opportunity to fall in love with another man?
You say in your sermon that you see no evidence of homosexual orientation being a gift from God--"certainly absolutely no biblical warrant" are the words you've chosen. I wonder if you believe that only those elements of creation which are listed by name in the Genesis creation stories are "very good" in the sight of God? If indeed the human race began with two individuals, it is most essential that (a) there be both a man and a woman, and (b) they both be heterosexual. But Adam's sons did not look exactly like Adam, and Eve's daughters were not Eve. Are we so sure that homosexuality wasn't present in the world even in our earliest generations?
Your point is well made: babies born blind, pedophiles... even Adolph Hitler was part of God's creation. I can't pretend to see good in all of His workmanship. But I can put my trust in His promise that all things will work together for the good of those who love Him. And I know that, though my feelings of spiritual, social, and sexual attraction to (deleted) are certainly abnormal, in the strictest sociological sense, they are just as certainly no less a gift from God than if (deleted) were Marcia.
Your practical advice to gay Christians, to change, remain celibate, or at least monogamous, seems cruel in the light of your later comment that "all human love is to some degree distorted and perverted." If homosexual love is a sin--which I define as something which separates us from God and God's will for us as individuals--then it should be purged from our lives. If it is holy--that is, if it can bring us closer to God and God's will--then it should be embraced. Why--how--could a minister advise his flock to sin "if perfection doesn't work out"?
And why, if all of our love is sinful, must we "express [our] clear preference for heterosexuality"? Don't you see that by expressing a preference for one we cannot help but degrade the other? My preference for any human being is not for heterosexuality or for homosexuality per se, but rather for whatever gift of sexuality God has prepared for him or her--and I am in no position to read God's plan for another human being.
To your three models of Christian response, I'd like to add an alternate answer to the "problem" of homosexuality:
Because God has created us as humans in infinite variety, it is impossible to make a blanket "law" which will apply to all of His children. We must therefore consider each relationship on the basis of its spiritual consequences.
If in deepening relations with one another, two persons find themselves growing more healthy, more mature, and more able to focus on God, then I would offer blessings upon that relationship. That relationship should be recognized by the church as a holy and God-created union, and should receive all the prayers and support that the people of God have to offer it.
If, on the other hand, those two persons find it harder and harder to focus on the will of God, distracted by lust, envy, or anger; and if they have prayed about that relationship and feel confident that God is not present in the union, then I would offer my blessings to those two persons as individuals, and offer them my prayers as they journey onward separately.
It occurs to me that I've just spent quite a few paragraphs attacking the sermon I had intended to praise. I hope you can forgive my tone; my life for the past year or so has been rather difficult as I've tried to earn acceptance as an openly gay Christian on the staff of a church in a frequently closed-minded community. The frustration I must suppress when dealing with my colleagues sometimes erupts forth when I have an opportunity for honest dialogue.
If you have an opportunity and a desire for further dialogue, I hope you'll take a moment to respond to this message. If not, please know that I appreciate the work you do, and that I know it to be the work of the Lord. God bless you in your ministry.
with the Love of Christ,
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Rev. Hess,
I came across the posting of your sermon you had posted on the internet, and last revised on 2/22/96 concerning "No easy answers" for gay people, and I wanted to share my comments with you.
I am a 42 year old man, married for 16 years, with 4 wonderful children, aged 14, 10, 10, and 10. (yes, they are triplets). My wife and I recently got a divorce partially (she would say wholly) because of my confession to her last year that I had and affair with another married man (who happened to be a Church of Christ minister, by the way), and the fact that I had had feelings of sexual attraction for men before and throughout our marriage. She is not a believer. Our marriage was not originally established as it should have been on the foundation of faith. I have grown in my walk with God throughout our marriage, and had tried to bring my wife and my children along with me, setting a "good example" by being active in my church (mainline Methodist), in my job, and in our community. However, I have never been able to shake the longings and attractions I have had for other men, and unfortunately for our marriage, I acted on it. No amount of prayer kept the longings from being there. I feel now that God did in fact make me this way, just as he made black people black. I used to think it was something I could will away, or pray away, but that's just not the case. Being gay is simply a part of my being. I don't feel that I can be "cured" as many of the "ex-gay" proponents suggest, nor do I feel any less loved by God for it. I deal with a lot of guilt, but it is mainly due to the fact that I have had to deceive people for so long on my true self. I hold the highest administrative position in my church that the Methodist church allows--Chairman of the Administrative Board. For me to annouce the fact that I am a gay man would tear our church apart at this time. I am aware of comments by friends of mine, even in the Sunday School class that I teach, that "I will NOT go to church with queers!" I fear being found out for that reason, as well as what it would do to my children, who are at a very vulnerable age. I have learned what it is like to be a "minority" and I've been given a whole new perspective of how semmingly loving, caring Christian people can be anything but that when it comes to homosexuals. For that reason, I was pleasantly surprised to read your words, which reflected an understanding I was not expecting from a Baptist minister.
I have had time now to examine my feelings about my sexuality, and realize that I should have been honest with myself years ago, and instead of trying to make myself something I'm not, with the result being that I've potentially affected negatively not only my own life, but that of my wife, my precious children, my ex-lover and his wife and children, and all those people who respect me for someone they THINK I am. The responsibility for their attitude towards the faith rested in my hands, and to some extent, still does. I feel like I would be letting my Lord and my church down by "coming outa', but at the same time, I feel a compelling need to be honest with who I am to those Christian brothers and sisters whom I love. You are right when you say that gays may not be able to count on the support of their church as those who are discrimminated against because of race can---I'm sorry to say that, but I'm afraid it's true. Gays CAN and do, however, get support in gay friendly churches (of which at least in the Dallas area there are many), so I know all Christians are not judgemental. This point might need further exploration, if you want additional ideas for future revisions or sermons.
I apologize for this being such a rambling letter, but there are a jumble of ideas which constantly pop into my head about my sexual orientation. I am nowhere near settling it in my own mind yet, even with the help of Christian counseling, but I know that my faith in God is stronger now than it ever was before, and I give glory to Him for allowing me to finally admit, at least to Him and to myself if very few others, that I AM a gay man, and that the world is not going to come to an end because of it.
I appreciate your kind and understanding words more than you can imagine. If you wish, feel free to correspond and I would be happy to talk to you further about it.
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I really enjoyed reading your sermon.
I am a Christian. I am a homosexual. In that order. It is an endless struggle to keep God first. I believe the church's (the Body of Christ) worst enemy right now is the church itself. We (the church) are acting as modern-day Pharisees. I wonder how God feels as he looks out at any congregation and sees many with their spiritual masks on but behind those masks are adulterers, homosexuals, abusers, drug addicts. The Word says confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. No wonder the church is suffering. We hide for fear of being condemned by our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I have just finished teaching a 13-week course called PrayerLife at (deleted). Not one person knew of my struggle and God truly moved in that class.
I am involved with a man that I met at church. We have been together for two years and my spiritual life has dwindled. If I could find a man that I could pray and read the Bible together every night I believe God would bless that relationship. But I have found that to be futile. I noticed you did not mention spiritual warfare in your sermon. The enemy bombards us on every front.
He turns any attempt my partner and I make to live a righteous and godly life into something dirty.
The Lord truly has blessed me in the last four years. I am involved in an AIDS ministry. We base the ministry on the Good Samaritan. The Samaritan did not ask the man in the street if he was gay-bashed or if it was a drug deal gone bad. He simply gave him food, medical assistance, transportation, and a place to stay. Of course this ministry is not in the Southern Baptist church I attend. I asked if they would start one. NO ANSWER.
Some of the most sincere Christians I have met are people struggling with homosexuality. They are humbled, cling to every word of God, and have sincere heart. They have been through battle. They do not lose heart. Though outwardly they are wasting away, inwardly they are renewed day by day.(2 Corith 4:16-18)
Pleas write back your sentiments.
P.S.
If you have a mailing list, I would love to be added.
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Good to find your message on the web. Since many of us have a bit of information to add, I thought that I would reply.
I was born into a good Christian family, went to Bible College, went out into the world, came back to The Lord.
When I was a young teen-ager and reading a Christian book on sex, I discovered that I fit the description of "homosexual." For many months thereafter, I wept bitterly, fasted and prayed and pulled out my hair. I said, "Lord, take this from me and give me cancer in it's place." He never did. Later on, in Bible College He , through devine intervention, caused my engagement to a young lady to break up. It would have never worked. She deserved better. In bitterness, I went out into the world where I found out that there were many others like me. I had my relationships, long and short term. I figured that since I was going to hell anyway, I might as well enjoy life. In time I became discouraged with a lifestyle that was doomed to failure from the start. I bagan to search for Jesus and discovered that He was there with me all the while. He may not have gone into some of the bars and places with me, but He sure was waiting for me outside.
In 1978 I was teaching a Bible study for new Christian gays, in (deleted). I had not yet decided on a celabate life. I was familiar with a Gay church called M.C.C., but I could not agree with them that Christianity and promiscuity can co-exist. One day, as I was running along the coast highway, I was hit by a car. Almost every bone in my body was broken. There was no hope for me to live. My family didn't know where I was for three days. My identification had become lost. I was "John Doe," unconcious in a hospital in (deleted).
Jesus knew who I was, and where I was. He was there with me, and I with Him. After several weeks I woke up, still in very grave condidtion, but aglow with the joy of the Lord. The only thing that I talked about was Jesus, He who is pure love. I tried to introduce every one of my doctors to Him.I asked each of them to accept Him as their Savior. They all thought I had brain damage. Since Jesus was right there in the room with me, I took the hand of each of my family members with the one hand that I could move, and prayed long prayers for each of them. I was with my God who is love personified, and for several years thereafter, I became very loving like He is.
I am 56 now and I am a celabate homosexual. I say I am homosexual because, " a rose by any other name is still a rose." I have always been a masculine man, and even more so now. Though I am crippled, I am much stronger mentally and physically, than many of the heterosexual men in my church, thus I am able to minister strength to many of them. I am blessed by doing so.
"NO EASY ANSWERS" For many years I surely thought that by the time I reached 56, some answers would have come, but they haven't Just more questions. I know that Jesus died for everyone and if I remain faithful, I am going with Him, but what about the "effeminate." Does this mean that Richard Simmons doesn't stand a chance? Should gay men marry women? (Ask Kathy Lee Gifford about her life with ex-husband Paul Johnson) Doesn't a straight woman deserve a man that appreciates her body?
I have suffered throughout my life, and still suffer greatly. Even as I watch old reruns of "The Waltons" on the Family channel, and I see each Walton child growing up and, sure enough, they each receive that "spark" of attraction to the opposite sex right on schedule, I wonder what they are feeling, I wonder what this is like, and I suffer, I suffer, I suffer.
One night I listened to Dr. Jimmy Allen speak about his book, "Burden of a Secret" He said that when his Christrian friends and congregation found out the secret about his family, they abandoned him. He said, "instead of perfect love casting out fear, fear had cast out perfect love." I guess that says it all. God bless you.
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Dear David,
I read your article with great interest. Thank you for NOT giving us the pat, smug, self-righteous, usual "Christian" answers. I can't take the time right now to tell you my whole story, but I will tell you briefly ... if you're interested I can tell you more. I am 52, divorced for over 20 years, I raised my two sons as a single parent - when they were 6 and 7 years old respectively. They are now both married and one has three children. I became a Christian at the age of 32 - two years after our marriage broke up. I live the next twenty years entirely celibate. I had always known that I had homosexual feelings - in fact I've never been sexually attracted to women at all. I fell deeply in love with my wife as a person - and in many ways am still in love with her (we remain friends). Just less than a year ago, I began a correspondence with gay men on the Internet. Eventually I met with a man in (deleted) and had my first homosexual experience. This led me to begin exploring the "gay scene" here in (deleted). I attended the gay church once or twice, I joined a couple of groups. Then I met a young man (31 yrs) and fell in love once again. This is the second time in my life I have "fallen in love" and I am unable to tell the difference in my emotions between the two times.
I guess the thing that mostly startled me was this: I had struggled all my life against giving in to the homosexual urges that I felt. Once I became a Christian, I struggled all the more, since the church taught that homosexuality is sinful. When I finally "gave in" to the temptation last May, I fully expected that I would be entering a place of sin and alienation from God. I almost expected to get Aids immediately ... probably thinking to myself that it would "serve me right." HOWEVER, what I discovered was that as I stepped through the door into this dark room called Homosexuality, I was greeted by Jesus Christ. There he was shedding his light into the darkest places of my soul.
I have found my walk with Christ to be closer and deeper since taking this step. Does this mean that Jesus actually approves of homosexuality? That he sees it not just as "not sinful" but as actually Good? I don't know the answer to that. All I can testify to is that my experience has been fulfilling sexually, emotionally, and spiritually. This obviously does not mean that it is the same for everyone. I can only speak about what I know. What I know is the overwhelming and unconditional love which God in Christ has for me and for all people.
THAT is the message I come away from this experience with. I am profoundly concious that far too many Christians devote their energies to condemning what other people DO, instead of proclaiming the fact that God LOVES them. I cannot judge another person (no matter what proof-texts you can find in scripture), and therefore my job is simply to fulfill the Great Commission - make the whole world into Christ's disciples. I believe that the North American church has totally lost it's way. It has become materialistic and lost it's compassion.
In the early days, Christians were the ones who "turned the world upside down". But now Christians have become "respectable," and are the ones who are disturbed by changes to the status quo. We need to be turned upside down again. Understanding the true nature of God's love will revolutionize our lives as people of God.
Anyway, what I wanted to tell you was that in your effort to be sensitive to gay people, you seem not to credit us with any validity to our own feelings. I can tell you that what I feel is GOOD. I am not concious of sin or falling away from God. I AM concious of the presence of God very closely to me.
By the way, many of the gay men I know have children and grandchildren. The young man who is my lover has absolutely NO desire to raise children, and NO desire whatever to know the "complementary love of a person of the opposite sex." There may be those who "grieve that they can never have children," but I have never met any. Indeed I have met far more unmarried women who grieve for that reason.
Also I take issue with your statement that the "natural purpose of sex" is biological reproduction." You only have to think for a moment about the nature of sexual intercourse between two human beings to see that it if far more than a means of procreation. They are face to face in a way that promotes communication. In fact, I believe that the PURPOSE of sexual relationships between people is to break down the barriers, enabling them to be honest, open and loving towards one another.
Producing babies, it seems to me, is a side-benefit. I think we got it all backwards. If we REALLY thought that sex was about procreation, then we would disapprove of sex even within marriage except for the production of babies - so the Pope would be right! Away with contraception!
Once we can say that sex is about a loving relationship between two people, then we cannot say too much about the genders involved. I really don't think anything in scripture really addresses this issue. Nor should it. People thought for years that the Bible stated that the world was created in 4004 BC - and that Science was WRONG. But the Bible isn't meant to be a science text book either. The Bible is meant for ONE purpose only - to introduce us to Jesus Christ. Once a person meets Christ in person, what happens after that is between Jesus and the individual - it is not for you nor I to say how that person should live. God is the ultimate judge - I am not equipped to do so. Yet, of course, we all love to tittle and tattle and gossip and judge - it is a part of our fallen nature. THAT is sin, sex is not. Yet, like all human behaviour, it can be sinful, as you say, everything we do, feel and say is tinged with sinfulness.
I said I wouldn't write too much, and I seem to be going on at some length. Sorry about that.
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I read your sermon: "Gays---No Easy Answers" with great interest. I was expecting to be offended, and wasn't. I am a 24 year old lesbian, a Quaker, and am married to my partner of 3 years. Of course our marriage is not recognized by the state, but we did have the ceremony at the Quaker meeting house, with all of my family in attendance, including my granmothers and one surviving grandfather. I'm not sure why I am giving you this detail about my life...probably because you seem to have taken the time to honestly think about sexuality, and even though I don't agree with everything in your sermon, it is the fairest baptist sentiment on homosexuality I have come across. My marriage, my relationship, and my family, are the things dearest to me. I guess I tell you about them because it is the best way I know of returning the gift you have given by not jumping in with pat condemnation that hurts gay and lesbian people and deems all heterosexual people to be incapable of sin. It is relieving to hear a christian sound like one, and call for understanding, and (at least some form) of acceptance and equal rights, instead of calling for the demonization of other fellow people. Unfortunately, I have heard too many times that all gays and lesbians should be stoned to death. Unfortunately, I have heard my community and culture scapegoated for the destruction of family values. Unfortunately, this is often done in the name of God and of Jesus Christ. As my mother said to a neighbour of hers: "The God I know, the Christ I know, never taught me to hate and be violent in his name."
In case you are curious about what I disagree with in your sermon (although I'm sure you can guess, and have heard it form others) I don't like the idea of being grieved for because I am a lesbian. Pity is so condescending, and can be so insulting. I would never look at a heterosexual person whose marriage is not as strong as my own, and give them pity. I can not give pity to a person who is blind either. To me, it seems that pity is along the same line as judgement, and it is not my job to judge, or pity, or condemn--or for that matter-- to exonerate. We are all responsible for our actions, our thoughts, our selves, our choices. We are all here together. I thank you for being responsible in your analysis of homosexuality. I am a happy woman, a spiritual woman, a kind woman...so far from the demon people would often like to paint me simply because I love a woman, and am committed to sharing my life with her so we can grow together.
So it seems, that though you and I have differing leaps of faith, different faiths, and different cultures, we can communicate. I am glad of that.
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I just read your sermon on an "alternative" Christian approach to homosexuality. I think it is beautiful and well-reasoned. I disagree with some of your statements, but agree with so many others. I am an openly gay, 28-year old attorney in (deleted). I live with a wonderful man, (deleted), in a monogamous, truly blessed relationship. Coming out was the most fortunate and intelligent, and probably most courageous, move I've ever made. Your statements about how gays must feel facing such awful ostracism were right on the money. I cannot tell you how difficult it is to be gay -- how terribly horrific it is to face the bigotry and hatredthat we face from so many, even (most painfully) our own families. If we could change our sexual orientations, I'm afraid many of us would. Just as many African-Americans, sadly, would opt to be white if given a choice. The worst hatred, the most painful bigotry, has come from those who call themselves Christian. I am a Christian. I believe I live a Christian life. I treat everyone as well as I would hope they would treat me, and I try to emulate Jesus in my dealings with others. Why, however, is it that gay men and lesbians like me are treated as categorically evil? Perhaps it is that we need a significant reformulation of the view that homosexuality is per se immoral. I believe it is not. I am moral. There is nothing immoral or dishonest about my relationship with my partner. We love each other. We support one another. And while at times we wonder how it would be like to lead a heterosexual life, partaking in the gift of procreation, we have concluded that we are psychologically and perhaps organically incapable of leading such a life. We are, therefore, trying to do the best with what we have and acknowledge love where we have it. How is that immoral?
Thank you again.
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I read your piece about homosexuality and I certainly feel your struggle and the writing, again, resurrected my own struggle. Although you tried to fairly provide analogies that may speak to the struggle, you, like many, left the basic challenge unanswered. I would encourage you to rethink two areas. One, the idea that Jesus had nothing to say, specifically,about homosexuality and, two, the notion that because there is perversion in heterosexuality, homosexual perversion is more understandable.
I think it is dangerous to make even moderate conclusions on what Jesus did not say. Really, he may have said something, it just was not caught by the writers. One would beg the question, why did the writers not catch or record a statement of Jesus? Perhaps, most of what was caught and recorded was the most controversial, that which was brought into conflict with the "norm" of the day. Homosexuality could have been commonly understood, among Jesus and the writers, as not acceptable, period, even though it was rampant. Jewish law was strongly against it, Jesus did not come to change the law. Of course the obvious argument, here, is to deliver slight, if any, credence to other popular behavior of today simply because Jesus said nothing about it then. Much if not all of what Jesus said has to be projected on the backdrop of the law in operation at the time. Many drug users have used the "Jesus didn't say not to smoke pot" theory to support their unhealthy, self-destructive behavior. We understand that doing so is not loving yourself.
The other reflection that evidence of heterosexual perversion is supportive of homosexual perversion is simply saying that we are in a fallen state. The fact that we are does not excuse behavior that is displeasing to God. There would be little need for the church if this were not so. Our sin is reconciled in nothing less than Jesus' sacrifice for us, not in how much other sin there is in the world or our lives. Sin does not excuse sin. Jesus excuses sin. Therein lies the real question here, is homosexuality sin? Is it a behavior that separates one from God? I think so. In part, this conclusion comes out of what I feel those who struggle with this issue overlook, conversation with those who have "crossed over". 100% of former homosexuals who now have freedom from such have shared with me that it is a sin. Who would know that best than they? More vehemently, they would also praise those who did not pat them on the back, in an acceptance of pop culture way, and show false love by trying to figure them out instead of speaking boldly against the sin, as one would any other oppressed state of sinfulness. Too often the image I get is one of talking about the challenge and not to the challenge.
Thanks for the time.
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David,
I saw your article on the Internet, and wanted to make a few comments...
First, let me give you a few details about myself. I'm 29, male, gay, and came out to myself about 6 months ago. (I really knew I was gay a long time before that, but I denied it.) I am out only to my sister and a close female friend. My parents do not know, nor do I plan to tell them.
The "moral aspect" of being gay really bothered me. I felt for a long time that being gay was wrong, that my feelings were wrong, and basically, evil. There is no doubt that in MY church (Baptist), I would be considered a pervert and "corrupted".
Many of your comments really hit close to home:
1. My parents (if they knew), would probably tell me to pray for God to change me. As you said, although He could, He probably woould not. (In fact, I did pray about this, but nothing changed...)
2. I also thought, what kind of life is THIS? I can't change the way I feel, but I thought that being a good Christian was incompatible with being gay.
3. Remaining celebate is NOT a realistic choice for me; I want a relationship.
4. I DO regret that children will not be possible for me... an unforunate limitation.
So, many of the comments you made I could relate to.
I think you have stated, concisely, the dilema we face: that there ARE no simple answers. I learned this months ago. What I basically decided was that the struggle is probably what is important. I hope so.
I should point out that I am NOT a great Christian: I go to church regularly, I believe that Christ is my personal savior, I am saved, but I do not read the Bible consistently, and to tell the truth, since I came out, I have gone to church less than before. I still struggle. And since I came out, and since I have met other gay people, it is clear that I will probalby continue to meet others. I am happier now than I have ever been. I am at last HONEST with myself, and it is wonderful. But I wonder what the price of being happier is sometimes. I think that the struggle with homosexuality has weakened my relationship with God. I don't even pray as much as I used to. I often fell like a hypocrite...
That is why I so enjoyed that end of your essay. "I'm not okay, and you're not okay. But that's okay... The cross is the place you can come when you have exhausted all the simple answers... Christ is there... He will not turn you away..." I cried when I read that.
I do not know what the future holds. But your essay has made me think again about this. Thank you.
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Sir, I read your sermon and do recognize the sincerity you put forth in trying to show yourself as a loving, accepting human being. Although your argument is not completely offensive (as most dynamically religious people tend to be), I believe that you are making several generalizations that simply are not true. The images you paint of homosexuals are, to me absurd. I think that you must have no real knowledge of what it is like to be gay. I am the reknowned expert compared to you. I live my life as an openly gay woman, both to my family and to the public. I am in no way immoral. I am a humanitarian; I believe in loving everyone. There is no exclusion when it comes to my love for people. I spend every day crying for people, hoping that their lives can somehow be influenced and that they can see the reality of how things are. I do not hate myself, because I do not know the meaning of that word. I love. That's it. I live my life according to the Golden Rule, the only important thing most of us have ever learned in our lives. I treat others with respect, even if they are not deserving of my respect.
I think that your imagery of a promiscuous homosexual is, in no way, accurate. I am an active part of the gay community, so I know the way that people feel about promiscuity. It is even less acceptable than in the general population. I live in a monogamous relationship with another woman, who I have taken to be my wife forever. We share a home, love, money, bills, food, time, etc. Is this so different than any marriage between a man and a woman that you have ever heard of? I will never repent living a rich life, giving all of my energy to helping people, and never denying myself the love that every human deserves to have.
On the issue of procreation: I am going to have children. As is my wife. We will have children, and raise them together. My best friend is a gay man who would like to have children, as well. Another friend of ours is in the same position. There you have it, a family with four parents instead of two. If two parents can offer a lot of love to their children, imagine how much love four parents can offer to them.
I think that the problem in your sermon is basically one of ignorance of the gay community. You should have invited those men to church. By failing to do so, you were failing to witness to them the word of God, i.e. failing to do the job you were chosen to do. One of the Ten Commandments is to love thy neighbor. By failing to invite them, you were showing absolutely no love for your neighbor. How can you love yourself if you don't love others? I would feel guilty about that, but I don't expect you to, because you don't subscribe to unconditional love by preaching that my love is a sin. I think you should get to know some gay people, it may make your sermon a little more understanding. We're not all that bad, and we don't all have AIDS. I would really like to hear a response from you on what I have said.
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I enjoyed reading your sermon on the subject of homosexuality. I commend you for your compassion and mercy to those who are struggling with this problem. However, I must strongly disagree with you on the point you made in regards to homosexuals being involved in a monogamous relationship if celibacy was too dificult. The apostle Paul makes the point in Romans 1:24,26 that homosexuality is not tolerated as an action by God. I agree with you that this is a difficult subject matter in regards to compassion, but the fact of the matter is that God clearly points to homosexuality being sin in this passage. This is the basis for my disagreement with you on the monogamy issue.
Sin is sin. There is no way to argue this point. We as humans have the choice to agree with God and call sin sin, or we can rationalize away the God-given conviction and choose to follow our own desires. This leaves us with no other option than to call homosexuality a sin. This stated, I don't think it possible for a homosexual to become a Christian yet continue to live in sin by practicing homosexuality; regardless of how difficult it may be. (I don't think you were arguing that it isn't sin but I am just seting up my argument and trying not to leave any room for doubt in where I stand). Paul also argues this in Romans 6 when he states, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Also in Galatians 2:20 he remarks, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." This shows that as Christians we cannot continue to live in sin because we are dead to sin. Not only are we dead to sin, but Christ lives in us so we cannot continue to "walk" in sin.
I would side with the conservative argument that you laid out in your sermon, in that if someone comes to faith in Christ then they have to repent (turn) of their sins and walk in obedience to God. I realize this is very idealistic and simplified, but the fact if the matter is that God's Word says, "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us."
The last comment I wanted to make is about Christ and his compassion. Jesus Christ was very compassionate on peole who were genuine and who genuinely did not know him. He was not however, compassionate on those that knew him and knew what was required of them yet continued to walk in sin. I see us as having the same responsibility. I am to have compassion on people that do not know the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior; whether homosexual or heterosexual, drug-addict or goody-goody. I am not however to have compassion on a member of the body that continues to walk in (practice) a certain sin. (Maybe I should have used "tolerance" in the preceeding sentence). This is a blatant disregard for the statutes of God.
Again, I really enjoyed reading your sermon and felt you made alot of good points. You challenged me in my understanding of homosexuals and the Lord used it to convict me of my attitude towards these list people. If any of this is unclear, or if you want me to elaborate on any of the points, please don't hesitate to respond.
May the Lord bless you and your ministry.
In Him,
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Mr. Hess:
One day while surfing the Net I came across your sermon, "Gays---No Easy Answers..." I was particularly interested since my own church is going through the process of declaring ourselves an "Open and Affirming" church. Other congregations sometimes call this "reconciling," but essentially they are struggling with the issue of admitting and accepting into their congregation persons of homosexual orientation as well as welcoming persons regardless of gender, able-ness, ethnicity, social class, economic class, etc, etc.
Your sermon was thought-provoking to me since I grew up in a fundamental church and am a gay man in a committed relationship with another man. A long-term relationship of some 17 years. I very much would like to dialogue, as much as possible and by the limitations of e-mail, about your sermon. I note you welcome response.
I am NOT a Biblical scholar in the sense that I studied for the ministry, but I have grown up with it and graduated from a college whose center was church and Christian based. Over the years I have had to struggle with the issue of homosexuality as sin, gift, or trick of God. I hope my insights will be of assistance to you.
"The Conservative Response"
As I see it this view is extremely popular in our churches and in our society. And having been raised with this view I understand, or at least think I understand, the justification for it. Many believe in the myth, "God said, I believe it, and that settles it." But as a growing Christian we must also explore the reasons God said it. Often what we take literally in context today had an entirely different meaning for those who wrote and heard it yesterday. Only recently I learned that for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle did not refer to our definition of needle, but to the Biblical definition. That is, the entry into the Holy City after the gates had been closed. Here is where I really began to wonder if we (a conservative community) had missed the boat on interpretation.
"The Progressive Response"
I agree that many, if not all, gay persons wished they could change their orientation. However, I do not necessarily agree it's because of a cruel trick by God. I think it because we as gay persons do feel we belong to the norm. When I was growing up no one ever told me it was "wrong" to be gay. I sensed it was not the "norm" or the accepted. In your Addendum you seem to support this view although you do state, "The truth is, all of us, straight and gay, know fundamentally that the natural purpose of sex, though not the only one, is biological reproduction."
I disagree. The purpose of sex, gay and straight, is to be intimately joined with another human. For some heteorsexuals, granted, the majority, is to reproduce. However, we demean countless heteorsexual couples who CHOOSE not to reproduce and burden countless more who desire to and cannot. "A man shall leave his mother and a woman leave her home and travel on to where the two shall be one." It does not say "...to where the two shall become three." I know, it also does not say that two of the same sex shall....However, I wish to approach that argument at another time. Since I think it's a subject unto itself. "The Moderate Response"
This is the view you are "most comfortable with." Why? Do we ever ask people of color, "We know you would rather be white, but if you can't BE white, then at least, ACT white. And if you can't to that then be as moral (like a white person) as you can?!?! My view is we, a community of sinners, need to find the myths and misinterpretations and downright lies we have come to believe from the Bible. We must seek truth. Our own personal world view might be...One man, one woman, two children, but where in the Bible did we ever get that notion. And because the Bible is an historical guide as well as a moral guide then we MUST find and understand the truth about its origin. We, as a church body, should be encouraging gay and straight relatlionships to be monogamous and then our churches and our families (however you define them) and then our communities will be stronger. It's not easy being monogamous for anyone, but it's a lot easier when we do it together.
These, Mr. Hess, are my thoughts. I understand, as I am sure you do, that it is easy to confuse words and meanings when they are written. I hope you will take this into consideration. I am helping my church learn what it really is to be gay and to be welcomed into the church. The process has not been frustrating for me, though my straight friends have experienced frustration. Just as we are called to tell the world about Jesus, I am convinced we also are to tell the world about love and justice. And I learned long ago its a slow process usually done one person at a time.
Thank you for you time. I look forward to your response. I do understand, that, as a busy pastor in a busy church, your time is limited. But I hope we can enjoy some healthy dialogue and debate.
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i appreciate and am sympathetic to your desire to find a middle way, a way that takes the bible seriously but also actively seeks to reach out in ministry to gays.
in my experience though, i have never talked to a "gay christian" who takes the scriptures seriously. they generally focus on "the sermon on the mount-type" words of jesus and leave out "i came not to bring peace but a sword", and anything else they don't like. the moral teachings of the ot are held as passe' ("you don't avoid garments of mixed fabric do you?"). an old christian friend who uncloseted himself a few years back wants nothing to do with his old christian friends. has anyone ever responded to what you say in the essay ("to gays i say....")?
i fear the polarization will only get worse as activist gays succeed more and more with their legislative/judicial agenda (ie romer v.evans)
enjoyed your essay. thanks and best wishes,
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After just reading your sermon on homosexuality, you have given me a completely new image of myself. I remember as far back as grade school being attracted of members of the same sex and used to look in the mirror feeling disgusted about myself. I felt like I had done something really dirty although it was just an attraction and prayed to God every night to "change" me. Finally, at 17 years of age, I discovered that my best friend was gay and we ended partying alot although not any different then regular teenagers. By then, I had had this view of myself as a complete outcast and thought "if I'm already this much a sinner, then it won't matter what kind of life I lead".
Now, I am 23years of age and have a different outlook. I know that I didnt choose this and I also know that I have found the person that I want to be with for the rest of my life, and no one can make me believe that I am doing anything wrong morally because of it. I do believe that I can still prove myself in the eyes of God without pretending to be somebody that I am not.
Thank You.
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I feel so relieved from reading this sermon. I have been feeling so alienated from my Christian "family" due to their extreme hatred and lack of compassion for homosexuals. I am a relatively new Christian but neccessity has made me grow rather quickly. But today, I just got fed up at some of the viewpoints that I as 'suppose' to have. I asked the Lord, "Is there something wrong with me, that I don't see things the same way as others?" I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I don't think it is a greater sin that others, i.e., adultery, stealing, drug-dealing (all the things I carry from my past). Yet, homosexuals get this special "don't you dare enter our church" routine. I wonder if people realize that the 3 most influential men in the bible where murderers? Anyways, it was refreshing to read this to know that I can have compassion for these folks.
While perusing the Internet today, I came across a link to your website and your sermon about homosexuality and the church (http://theparson.net/gays.html). What you had to say really interested me and peaked my curiosity. Before going into my thoughts about the sermon, let me introduce myself.
My name is James Deaton and I am a 25-year-old technical writer from the Chicago suburbs. I am a follow of Jesus Christ. I am also a homosexual. I have been on a spiritual journey (and, I am still on this journey...it will never end in this lifetime) the past three years. After graduating from a conservative Christian university (Cedarville College--www.cedarville.edu) with degrees in English and Bible in June of 2000, I moved to Chicago to accept a job at 3Com Corporation (as a technical writer). I also moved here to discover myself. I was disillusioned with the Church.....with myself.......with my direction in life....with my sexual orientation......with lots of things. I think college forces those things to surface...a person's worldview and belief structure begins to solidify in those years...from my experience. There's so much more to my story...and, when I have the time...I'd like to share more of it with you.
Also, in your biography, you say you graduated from Berea College. Actually, I went there for a semester and a half in 1996/1997. You can read about my experiences there (in regards to my "coming out" process) here...http://www.whosoever.org/v7i3/deaton.html
In regards to your sermon, I want to thank you so much for your voice of reason and compassion. When I got to the second paragraph... "The first thing, and the main thing, I want to say is that we need to forget about simple answers. There are none. We are fooling ourselves if we think there are."...I couldn't believe it. My heart began to resonate with your words. This is the voice I've been looking for...this is the voice of Christ...this is the voice of reason...this is exactly what I've been feeling. I get so tired debating the "biblical" and "medical" and "psychological" evidences, or lack thereof, for and against homosexuality. Is it compatible with Christianity? I believe it is. I believe wholeheartedly when you say "Our message is ultimately, 'I'm not okay, and you're not okay. But that's okay.'" We truly live in a broken, fragmented world.
I know in my own life......I've tried so hard to live a life pleasing to God. I know for a fact...since coming out...I'm am so much more honest than I was before. It was like a burden was lifted off of my shoulders. It was like a breath of fresh air came into my stagnant heart and soul. I know that I am loved by God...despite all of the imperfections in my life. This is definitely a difficult subject, but silence will not make it go away. I think this was the most tragic thing about growing up in a conservative, Baptist church (Free Will Baptist). Silence. It's probably deadlier than direct, verbal abuse. I think sex, in general, is a taboo topic, but homosexuality is the GREAT TABOO TOPIC. Yet, when I am honest with my coworkers...and my familiy......and my friends....they are all shocked by the fact that I'm gay. They say to me, "I wouldn't have known it in a million years." And, I tell them...."I try to live my life with integrity and honesty...I don't live it for anyone else but God. I just want to be myself.....and I am myself most of the time. This is the real James."
And, that should be our motto...honesty is ALWAYS the best policy.
One last thing (I appreciate your patience and willingness to listen, also), I am the coordinator/director for Soulforce here in Chicago. Soulforce is an interfaith movement seeking to end the spiritual violence caused by religious organizations. We hold fast to the teachings of Jesus, the Jewish prophets, Gandhi, M.L. King, Jr., Oscar Romero, Dorothy Day, and many other spiritual sages and "voices in the wilderness." We hold fast to the nonviolent principles exemplified by the lives of these people. If you are interested in learning about Soulforce, check out our national website -- www.soulforce.org/. I think you would find it fascinating at least. And, like always...we certainly can agree to disagree...but always love the person for who they are trying to be.
I also enjoyed your article "A Raging Moderate." I loved your quote "We "raging moderates" embrace the path of tension, as uncomfortable as it is, because we recognize that many of the issues we face are too complex for simple formulation, even for the application of labels." I don't like to be labeled as "gay" or "Christian" or "liberal" or whatever is out there. I want to be known as James Deaton, a man searching for truth and attempting to live the life of true love.
I thank you, again, for your life and your message.
May the peace of God reign in your heart forever...
Peace to you, my brother...
--James Deaton
Schaumburg, IL
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Thank you for your sermon! It is Christmas day and I am home alone feeling sorry for myself. I have few friends because I am afraid to get close to anyone. I have a loving family, but don't know HOW loving they would be if they knew about me! I am a 25 year old male that will probably remain in the closet all of his life. I have so many profound things I would like to say to family and friends that would surely change their attitude about homosexuality, but I cannot take that risk. It could mean losing some of them!
I guess your sermon did not give me any answers. I dont think it was supposed to. I do know it showed me that all the thoughts that go through my head EVERY DAY are not crazy and that I am not the only one that is aware of it. One thing you did not mention, ,unless I missed it, was the fact that we are constantly facing the thought of suicide. Days like today, especially, I think about it! I only wish I could go to a psychiatrist/hypnotist and get rid of these "evil" thoughts!
I don't know what will become of me tomorrow or the next day.... I only know it helped to come across your sermon. It shows me that SOMEONE knows the pain I am dealing with. I wish you could some how post that sermon on every front door in America and beg that everyone read it and really listen to what you have to say.
It is a shame that we cannot talk about what hurts us so... even with our families. I have tried to talk to my mom about it, but after 5 years it has been swept under the carpet and she is still waiting for me to introduce her to my next girlfriend and possible future wife. I have given up on talking to anyone about it! So, I continue to live my life a secret. I have a happy exterior, but a hurt inside that will not go away. One day, probably long after I have left this World, people will be more sensitive to this pain!
Again, thank you and I am sorry for "babbling" to you. Even that helps, even if you read it, delete it and never think about it again.....I got a little bit of it off my chest!
Merry Christmas!!
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Its obvious you have a very low view of Scripture, in that case why use it for an "Appeal to Authority at all"?
Why not just continue with your humanistic pop psychology?
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I ran across your sermon while cruising the internet, and sceptically thought I'd read it, just to reinforce my bias against religious sermons on homosexuality (I'm an ex-Seventh-day Adventist, still recovering after 15 years of being ousted from my church-related job, my religion, wife, etc.). What a pleasant surprise. I cannot say I agree with every nuance you express, but your overall tolerance and sense of the complexity of the issue is refreshing, and it uplifted me to hear that attitude coming from a Baptist minister. Thanks!
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I read your thoughtful, well-written sermon with great interest. I am fortunate enough to have lived both in New York City and San Francisco, rather than the Bible Belt, and in my coming out did not lose the support of "friends, family, and the church," but that is not to say that I haven't had a hard time wrestling with my sexual identity. I find myself perpetually ill at ease with the compulsively promiscuous, appearance-obsessed, recklessly self-indulgent gay lifestyle in such supposedly "enlightened" cosmopolitan meccas, yet I am equally uncomfortable with the xenophobic, science-phobic, thinking-phobic, narrow-minded, bigoted culture of the conservative churches leading the crusade for "family values." I did try a Bible-thumping support group for gays who wanted to change, but apart from the odious othordoxy in their literalist interpretation of the Bible, the group was frequently attended by these aggressively cheerful, young, slightly overweight, "Christian" women who seemed excessively eager to hasten our deliverance into a "Christian" marriage. I couldn't help but see Hell on Earth.
To be totally honest, I know that deep down inside, what I am looking for in another guy is ultimately what I am looking for in myself, yet I am also driven by a passion to live in this world, to know what it is to love someone deeply, to have passionate sex, to experience joy and heartbreak, anger and grief and ecstasy, even at the risk of making a complete fool of myself, which I often do.
That is why I have chosen for now to be the way I am, because I so value the experience of living the way most Christian denominations don't. And maybe that has been the real failure of the American Church, Catholic and Protestant, moderate and Holy Rolling, to preserve so-called "family values" over the past thirty years. I mean, come on, if this piously puritanical anti-septic orthodoxy was so great to begin with, then why did it lose it's power and control over society?
I now live in a very conservative part of the country, though not to far from the cosmopolitan (deleted) nearby right across the border. What strikes me most about my conservative Christian neighbors is how materialistic they are, absorbed in television and shopping malls, as if this were what made up a real life.
Yet, once again, I can't honestly say the brutal meat markets of gay urban hangouts is much better.
So, maybe, Pastor, you can take a good long hard look at your religion and the lifestlye of your congregation and ask yourself:"Is this it?"
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I just wanted to tell you I appreciate your sensitive treatment of the subject of homosexuality and the church. My husband of eight years recently left me because of struggles with his sexual identity and past behaviors I never even had a clue about -- even though we had grown up in an Assembly of God church together and always been active in church.
It is the most difficult battle of both our lives for sure. People don't understand how I could still care for him after what he has done. Sometimes I don't understand it, and we did go ahead and decide to get divorced. I wonder how many other people sitting in church every Sunday are living in the kind of torment he has lived in since age 11. Or how many women are married to good men with horrible problems.
Thanks for letting me vent. Please continue to write about this very difficult subject.
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Pastor -- I don't know if I should be responding to the sermon on the web since I'm not of the same religious faith as you, and I doubt therefore that we'd be able to find much common ground underneath any points we might discuss.
I'd just like to take issue with what I believe is the core logical fallacy behind your thoughts on the matter. You say,
>The homosexual knows that in light of that most basic fact his or her sexuality is distorted, and he or she grieves over that.
Yet later you say,
>society needs to somehow express its clear preference for heterosexuality
The only reason for a gay person to grieve over his or her sexuality is if society expresses a preference for heterosexuality. If society would stop expressing this preference (what you call preference I call discrimination) -- that is, legalize gay marriage and encourage the stability of gay relationships and refrain from gay bashing and discrimination in jobs, housing, religion, community, politics, and other facets of life -- then gays would have no reason to "grieve." However, I would also point out that there are now plenty of communities of straights and gays together where such discrimination is disappearing (New York, San Fran, South Florida, New Jersey, Massecheusetts), and so most gay people I know are, on average, relatively as happy or happier than their heterosexual counterparts as they have done the extra work of reflecting on the purpose of their lives and taking their lives and spirituality into their own hands.
I think that what strikes me as particularly odd is your idea that sexuality is only for procreation. I know no actual people (regardless of their sexual orientation) who have actually felt this way about their sexuality in contemporary times. And historically, I know no religion that actually states this explicitly, although I conceed that it did seem to become a part of the Christian religion during monastic times. It seems to me that sexuality is also tied up with expressions of love and intimacy -- and surely the sexual part is just one small part of being either gay or straight. The larger picture is about primary love relationships that go well beyond and particular sexual acts. And clearly with the proliferation of fertilaztion drugs, artificial insemination, etc. this doesn't seem to be a real issue for the Christian church when it comes toward straight people. If it were, then I believe that the Christian church should picket infertal heterosexual marriages and make these illegal as well -- that's the only consistent position. Heterosexuals would have to be tested to make sure they were fertile before the state would allow them to get married. If they were infertal and tried to get married or have sex they should be arrested or at the very least fired from their jobs, banned from the military, etc. That's how gay people are treated in large measure now.
So tell me, if the reason that gay relationships are to be discouraged is because the sexuality of the relationship doesn't produce offspring, why doesn't the church also condemn infertal heterosexual relationships and make sure these are illegal and discouraged?
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Dear David,
This morning I downloaded your article off the www (Gays--No Easy Answers) and the only thing I can think to say is BRAVO, BRAVO,BRAVO!!!!!
For lack of time, I will not go into an exhaustive explanation of my own thoughts and experiences but will tell you that as a 32 christian "gay" man who has never embraced the "I was born this way; its a gift of God" mentality......reading your article was very refreshing. The thing which I suppose I appreciate more than any other is the fact that you readily struggle with the issues involved and come to no simple solutions.
As a thinking individual I write and journal frequently and I must say (in an unpatronizing way) that your thoughts probably more closely reflect my own than anyone whom I've read. It is very annoying to me having only the two "simple minded" extremes---- either the right wing "homosexuality is wrong therefore we will not give them the same latitude which we have grown to show the divorce christian heterosexual population" and the other extreme which would make God and his Word irrelevant with a whole hearted embrace of homosexuality and all it encompasses. At times, it may become difficult to strike just the right balance but I agree that homosexuality is not natural.....(as you pointed out--just look at natural law) but by the same token it doesn't change the fact that if I didn't believe the Bible I could easily believe that "gay" is perfectly "natural" for me.
I was most appreciative of the eunach and the coorelation between his salvation and old testament "uncleaness".....I had never seen that before and it was really refreshing to see an old testament outcast (like the homosexuals) fully forgiven and accepted by God through the person of Jesus Christ.
I have been to varying degrees involved in ex-gay ministries and attempting to come to resolution of this issue for sometime now and I'm sure you've heard this before but I'll say it again......changing ones sexual orientation and/or the responces to it are probably the greatest challenge a person faces......for me some 5 years after first going to a councelor and revealing my deep dark secret, I wonder how much (if any) progress I have made. One thing is for sure, my false hope of easy solutions has long ago vanished!
I struggle endlessly between the hope that I can one day be at peace living my life alone , in that place outside of homosexuality, but I also want some very close male friends and for me the monogomous relationship thing is always in the back of my mind and then of course there are times when I end up acting out physically with another man (although thats the one area where some progress does appear clear --- from many years ago when I first began therapy and acting out numerous times a day was not uncommon;--- even as I was a well liked young man in my local PCA conservative church congregation).
For me there are no easy answers and so I don't know how my views will differ next year or ten years from now ;but at 32, I am human and very capable of very great sins .........I struggle, work through, scream, pray, go out to bars , almost give up, journal, struggle and know that I'm grossly insufficient and but for God's grace I'm doomed. Ultimately, I think its believing ,that in spite of a thousand things which I don't understand, God is good.
And in his grace I shall hopefully continue to struggle and wrestle ;but God willing, hopefully not give up.
Also please feel free to bounce any ideas or thoughts which you have off me....I would love to have a christian to coorespond with who is beyond the "simple solutions" mentality on a range of issues including but not limited to homosexuality.
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I am a Catholic in Taiwan. Your sermon -"Gays--No Easy Answers" really touched my heart. Therefore, I ask your permission to tranalate this sermon in Chinese to share with my friends. Please inform me if it is possible. Thank you very much!
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I am writing to you in response to your sermon which was placed on the internet "Gays---No Easy Answers; A Christian Response". I can only say, thank you for presenting information which is worth reading and is of quality material about this very complex issue.
I am a young college male who has struggled with my sexual orientation for a great deal of my life. I have never spoke with anyone about this "closeted" area of my life before. I know that I am a homosexual, but I have not had the courage nor the appropriate opportunity to speak about it with anyone. I have never felt confident about speaking about my homosexuality with another gay person because I have tended to have a lack of trust of the homosexuals which I know. I feel that the gay persons I have known are typical of the homosexual stereotype persons who have few religious and moral values. I find myself to be an individual who has a high standard of both religious and moral values. However, I currently have a friend who is gay whom I greatly admire. I know that he has moral and religious values. I have just had a difficult time bringing up the subject to him. Your sermon aided me a great deal with the means by which to approach him.
I have not yet spoken with him, but I hope to in the near future. Yes, homosexuality is the most difficult issue I have ever had to face in my life. Choosing a college and choosing a major were both difficult, but not nearly this difficult. Furthermore, I have consulted library resources written about the issue of homosexuality, and I have found that there is very little information with regard to Biblical interpretation. Many of the authors simply explain about how they "came out of the closet". Many of their reasons were based on feelings of pure lust and nothing more. I am looking for a loving and compassionate relationship, and this sermon reinforced the ideas which I have felt all along.
Thank you again for presenting this material. I feel that God works through people to reach others. Perhaps this is what he has done in this instance.
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Dear Mr. Hess,
I just read your sermon and I was very glad to see that all American Baptist Churches do not feel the same. I am an 18 year old College student at the University of (deleted). I've been going to an American Baptist church in my hometown in (deleted) every week for as long as we've lived there. (10 yrs) I've always blindly believed everything that was told to me and never questioned anything. That's what I was told to do. I continued to do this until the summer before I went to college.
I *really* tried to be straight but I just couldn't. All through high school I denied all the feelings I had for male friends. I just thought it was one of those sinful thoughts that goes through everyone's head. It turned out that none of my friends had these feelings. I became very depressed because I could not stop the feelings I was having. I also could not have those feelings for girls no matter how hard I tried.
The summer before my first year at college I met someone who was openly gay. This was unheard of in my town (I thought). We had a strictly platonic friendship and he taught me that I was not the only person in the world to have these feelings and that there were many other gay people in my town.
When I came to school, I was really nervous about what the situation for gays would be on campus. It turned out better than I could've ever imagined. I am a voice major and my private instructor is openly gay ... and a christian. I had a really hard time understanding this and we've talked about it a lot. I finally realized that I am who I am and that it's ok to be that way.
My first semester was great! I was doing great in school and was in a steady relationship with really nice guy. I went home for Christmas break and went to my old church. (No one at home knows I'm gay except my family and some friends, by the way) Out of every sermon the pastor gave while I was there, he had something bad to say about homosexuals. I just sat there letting it pass over and paying attention to the rest of the sermon, but it happened every week. I really don't know what to do. My church is very loving and supportive of me in everything I do, but I truely feel that if I stand up for myself I will not be welcome there anymore. I am *very* upset about this. After all these years, I don't feel welcome anymore. I am however *very* greatful for the values that were taught to me by my church and I do carry them over into my relationships with men. I just don't know what to do.
This has turned out to be a really long letter. I just wanted to share my experience with my church and homosexuality in general. I was just really happy to see that not all churches feel the same way.
I'm sending you the URL for an article I found on the web about this topic and what the American Baptist Church organization has done. It's http://www.outnow.com/77/church2.html .
Thank you for your time and your sermon.
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I appreciate the candor with which you expressed your understanding (or lack thereof) of grace in the sermon you have placed on the internet. I have to say, however, that it seems to me that your words entirely miss the mark. As a gay minister, let me assure you that what I am is in fact a gift from God and my sexuality is celebrated by the hosts of heaven as is everyone elses -- as was Jesus's. I'm actually rather embarassed that you made it clear that you are American Baptist. Those of us who strive to welcome everyone have a hard enough time without the reiteration of the ageless ignorance of the church universal.
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I read your piece about homosexuality and I certainly feel your struggle and the writing, again, resurrected my own struggle. Although you tried to fairly provide analogies that may speak to the struggle, you, like many, left the basic challenge unanswered. I would encourage you to rethink two areas. One, the idea that Jesus had nothing to say, specifically,about homosexuality and, two, the notion that because there is perversion in heterosexuality, homosexual perversion is more understandable.
I think it is dangerous to make even moderate conclusions on what Jesus did not say. Really, he may have said something, it just was not caught by the writers. One would beg the question, why did the writers not catch or record a statement of Jesus? Perhaps, most of what was caught and recorded was the most controversial, that which was brought into conflict with the "norm" of the day. Homosexuality could have been commonly understood, among Jesus and the writers, as not acceptable, period, even though it was rampant. Jewish law was strongly against it, Jesus did not come to change the law. Of course the obvious argument, here, is to deliver slight, if any, credence to other popular behavior of today simply because Jesus said nothing about it then. Much if not all of what Jesus said has to be projected on the backdrop of the law in operation at the time. Many drug users have used the "Jesus didn't say not to smoke pot" theory to support their unhealthy, self-destructive behavior. We understand that doing so is not loving yourself.
The other reflection that evidence of heterosexual perversion is supportive of homosexual perversion is simply saying that we are in a fallen state. The fact that we are does not excuse behavior that is displeasing to God. There would be little need for the church if this were not so. Our sin is reconciled in nothing less than Jesus' sacrifice for us, not in how much other sin there is in the world or our lives. Sin does not excuse sin. Jesus excuses sin. Therein lies the real question here, is homosexuality sin? Is it a behavior that separates one from God? I think so. In part, this conclusion comes out of what I feel those who struggle with this issue overlook, conversation with those who have "crossed over". 100% of former homosexuals who now have freedom from such have shared with me that it is a sin. Who would know that best than they? More vehemently, they would also praise those who did not pat them on the back, in an acceptance of pop culture way, and show false love by trying to figure them out instead of speaking boldly against the sin, as one would any other oppressed state of sinfulness. Too often the image I get is one of talking about the challenge and not to the challenge.
Thanks for the time.
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I just wanted to say that this sermon was biblical, and should be looked upon by every church in the world who profess christianity. Reading it, I felt like you had given gays the answer. It was well writen, well thought, and Godly. Unfortunetly, It's not an easy answer (like you said). I happen to be gay (I am not remotely proud of it), It is hard. I know that I try to block those feelings out of my mind, but somehow they keep comming back. A few years back I took the approach that "God made me that way", but like you said there are babies born blind. I'm sure God didn't want them to be that way, but they are.
I just wanted to tell you that you seem like a spiritual man and that I would like to write back and forth. I have some other things to talk to you about. MY pastor is conservative and wants no part with gays, he just doesn't understand, I mean I love him dearly but his flaw is his view on homosexuals.
I am 19 and I go to (deleted) college in (deleted). My parents don't that I have these feelings because they basically feel the same way that most conservatives think and I don't want them to know. I have friends to talk to about it , but i need somone who knows God the way God is. Too many people and churches mold God into what they want and I don't like that and God probably doesn't like it either.
Sincerely, In Christ,
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Hey wanted you to know that I read you essay about no easy answers. Isn't that the truth. I grew up in the church course I'm only 21 now but I've left because I am gay. I"m not even ashamed. I miss the church. I always planned on being a pastor my self, did a year of Bible school, then I got kicked out because I was infact Gay. I don't even know about what I feel. I know that I am in love with my boyfriend very much and for the first time in my life I am very happy, I"m no longer living a lie.
God Bless your ministry, you seem like your pretty cool dude,
Hey I really like the line about curing diabetes, prettys sweet.
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I just finished reading your sermon "No Easy Answers". I have to tell you up front that I disagree with a lot of what you've written; however, I was very pleased to see the extent to which you went to approach answers to the various questions posed. It appears that you have indeed spent much time considering the many issues involved in discussion of homosexuality and the church. It is all too easy to find articles and sermons about the "evils" of homosexuality, so it was refreshing to see a writer, especially one from within a chuch, who actually takes time to wrestle with the questions in a more productive way. Even though I don't agree with most of your points, I do feel that you've given the matter of homosexuality a lot of valuable consideration by looking at both societal and biblical aspects. Some writers today seem to completely ignore the fact that we are living in the 20th century without lambs, asses and chariots. Your sermon shows that you are very much aware of what's going on in the community around you, and that is perhaps the greatest step a religous leader can take before looking at some very difficult questions.
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Just a short note to say that the sermon you wrote is very well written. I am not gay by any mean, but I do have a few friends that are. It make me sad to hear people putting them down because of their lifestyles, when in reality they could be one of the best friend you'll ever have.
I am married and have four kids of my own, ranging in age 9 on up to 18. In our family we have a couple of nephew that are open and out of the closet, and I don't believe there is a family out there that can say they don't have any homosexual relatives. They go thru alot of pain in trying to keep their relationship with the family. As I've said, we do not condone their activities and they know it, but we do not treat them like they were poison. My wife and I are the only couple that will greet them into our home beside their mother. I can sympathy with what they have to go through. It's not easy.
Again, I enjoyed reading the sermon. Thanks for giving some new insight from the christain viewpoints. It will provide some new discussions in our church. Many of our friends in the church are very judgemental toward the gays.
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I appreciate your balance. I also recognize that you have given the subject much thought (no doubt much more than I), and I express my opinions humbly.
I fear the stance expressed in your article,
"Our practical advice for the gay Christian is change your orientation if you can. If not, be celibate if you can. If not, be as moral (i.e. monogamous) as you can."
may be used as a "cop out" by many. Many of God's Biblical mandates were virtually impossible without the continual empowering of the Holy Spirit (e.g., turn the other cheek, overcome evil with good, love your enemies, and so forth). Shy of heaven, we will always wrestle with the old nature within. I struggle with lust. I have gained control over my sexual thoughts for certain periods of time from minutes to perhaps weeks or months, but the struggle has remained, and I have no confidence that I will ever change (i.e, be freed from it altogether). So, I must continue to resist and wage war against the flesh. If indeed homosexual activity is sin, then the (debatable) inability to change is no license for acceptability. Nor does the difficulty of remaining celibate afford any relief from the wrongness of sin. I remained celibate until I was married at 28. I realize that is not a lifetime, but had I not found the woman God had for me to marry, I would be celibate still. I know many people who have remained celibate for entire lives. It is certainly difficult, and difficulty is certainly no excuse for compromise.
I suppose in essence I agree with you, but feel it is important to stress that the word of God may not be compromised under any situation.
I also recognize that the church's response to homosexuals has been entirely unacceptable in its rejection of the individual. I commend you for not taking the easy road (either easy road!), but really wrestling with the issue.
The reason I initially started to write you is to share a couple of resources available on the WWW concerning this issue. The Christian Research Institute has made some pertinent documents available at the following URL's:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0053a.txt
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0107a.txt
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0108a.txt
You may be aware of these, but I thought I'd send them just in case.
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You strike me as someone who is struggling with the issue of homosexuality and it's place in the Christianity. I would guess that you have always considered homosexuality to be wrong, but have recently had an experiance - perhaps getting to know someone who is gay - that has made you challenge that old belief system and come to the realization that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. But you're still not there completely...you don't quite know how to let go of those old ingrained beliefs. And I would guess that you're not very comfortable with where you are right now. I hope that you can resolve that struggle with an open heart and an open mind.
Let me tell you a little about myself before I comment on your sermon, so you'll understand where I coming from. I am 34 and have been really struggling with what place the church has in my life. I am still struggling with feeling accepted by the Church - I find that I'm very distrustful, and for good reason. I've been going to a Baptist church for the past 3 years - it's the first church that I've stepped foot in since I came out when I was 18. I was raised Methodist in a religious family who strongly believes that homosexuality is a sin. I've known I was gay since I was very young and am very comfortable with my sexual orientation. I'm in a committed monogomous relationship with a wonderful woman who is very religious - she's why I've gone back to church. She's going to seminary right now. She also has 2 daughters from a previous marriage, so I've had the opportunity to co-parent them. They are great - very loving and accepting - and they are shocked when they find that anybody could have a problem with homosexuality.
I wish that Jesus had said something very clearly about homosexuality, so that we could have saved from all the grief that the Church has so willingly imposed on gays and lesbians, and continues to impose to this day. Perhaps he did say something, but it was never recorded, or it was lost somewhere along the way. Well, regardless of what Jesus may have said or not said, we have minds and hearts and perhaps we can figure this out for ourselves.
As a first comment on your sermon, I agree with you that there are few easy answers to anything in life. Sexuality itself is not the clear cut dichotomy that you portrayed in your sermon - I believe that there is a spectrum of sexuality in which humanity is distributed in a gaussian curve from completely straight at one end, and completely gay at the other, sort of like this: (drawing deleted)
It's rather difficult to draw a Guassian distribution in ASCII, but hopefully you get the idea. The mean could be closer to the center - this is just a guess. The important thing is that there would be very few people that are 100% gay or 100% straight. Of course, to acknowlege this requires being very honest with yourself - something few people are willing to do. Anyway, this is what makes sense to me, and I believe that research such as the Kindsey (sp?) report backs it up.
Now, onto your sermon...
>Thho wished that they were gay.
>The truth is, all of us, straight and gay, know fundamentally that the >natural purpose of sex, though not the only one, is biological reproduction
"Though not the only one" is the big thing that you should remember here. Sex comes out of love for the person that you are with - it is a natural and very powerful statement of that love, a time when two people become connected on a level that the intellect can not provide. If the only reason was reproduction, then love and monogomy would be meaningless. If fact, love and monogomy would be detrimental to greater propagation of the species.
> The homosexual knows that in light of that most basic fact his or her > sexuality is distorted, and he or she grieves over that.
I find this to be insulting and very hetrosexually based. It seems the only place that this statement can stem from is the presumtion that homosexuality is wrong, and therefore is a distortion of what is right. I think it is impossible to view homosexuality objectively when one comes from this foundation.
And even if you take it on the premise that homosexuality is wrong because it does not lead to reproduction of the species, who's to say that this is not also a natural way to ultimately protect the species? Perhaps nature intends some of the species to not be tied to the demands of childrearing in order to provide other needed services to the species such as leadership, medicine, physical protection, longterm planning. Who knows? Not a strong argument, I know, but I thought I'd throw in for what it's worth. It's something that I've considered from time to time, but haven't truely embraced.
> They grieve that they will never be able to know the full complementary >love of a person of the opposite sex.
This is also insulting and seems to be based in a real ignorance of the love between a committed homosexual couple. You make it sound like it is inferior to the love in a hetrosexual relationship. I would suggest that you re-think this. I could as easily assume that hetrosexuals grieve that they will never be able to know the full complementary love of a person of the same sex.
> They grieve that they can never have children.
There's a real baby boom going on right now in the gay and lesbian community. And ALL of these babies are very planned and very wanted, believe me. As a matter of fact, I hope to have a baby soon myself.
>We do not believe that God ever intends any of His people to be >homosexual. We believe people are gay not because they choose >to be so, but because all of nature is fallen and out of wack.
I strongly disagree with this. I believe that there is nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality, although that is clearly what you are saying. Being homosexual is not to be "fallen and out of wack". It's just the society surrounding it that is out of whack.
>Think how hard it must be for a gay person to live a purely monogamous >life without the blessing of, or any support from the church >and society.
Yes, it is difficult to live without any acceptance or positive acknowlegement of my relationship. However, this does not mean that I should just give it up because it is hard. I love my partner completely and I hope that our relationship lasts for the rest of of our lives. I consider us to be married. If Hawaii legalizes gay marriages as expected, my family and I are going to Hawaii as soon as we can. What I would like is for society to recognize that homosexuality is not a sin and for there to be the same support for homosexual relationships as there is for hetrosexual ones. I had hoped that the Church would respond before the state by providing ceremonies that bless relationships, but I have found that although there are pastors who believe that this is right thing to do, they are fearful of losing their jobs if they were to perform one.
> To be sure, a eunuch, a man who has been castrated, and a homosexual > are not the same thing, but there are similarities. Neither can > function fully as a heterosexual person.
This is again judgementally touting hetrosexuality as the ideal and homosexuality as an inferior defect. I function fully as I am - I do not need to be hetrosexual in order to feel whole.
>Can the church handle this issue in a way that is compassionate and true >to the biblical teaching that sexuality should be fully expressed only >in a lifelong monogamous heterosexual relationship?
Where does the Bible say this? I believe that this is your interpretation of the Bible's teaching. Be careful about portraying it as a fact. Also, why not a lifelong homosexual relationship? I believe that you are missing the fact that hetrosexual and homosexual relationships are the same. The only difference are the genders involved. In my relationship, we still have to go to the grocery store, mop the floor, take the kids to karate, soccor, basketball, and piano, fix dinner, pay taxes, have the family over for Christmas and Thanksgiving, go to work, find time to be a family and be a couple. We have to keep our lines of communication open so we can work on things in the relationship before they become a problem. We celebrate anniversaries and birthdays. And yes, we have sex. But I get tired of people thinking only about the sexual aspect of our relationship. ALL of our relationship is about two people loving and caring for each other. Sexually, as well as in every other way. And I find that my relationship is very compassionate and true.
>The church has no simple answers for you either, but we do grieve with you.
I would like more than grieving. I would like understanding, respect, acceptance, courage, and action. At least you are asking some of the right questions, and that is a start. The church as come pretty far in the past 15 years on this issue. However, it still has an incredibly long way to go and I find it very hard to remain patient.
I'm glad you posted this sermon so we could have a chance to talk - feel free to e-mail me to talk further if you want. I bet you get a lot of mail on this subject, so I won't take it personally if I don't hear from you. I just glad to talk to someone in the Baptist religion about homosexuality - as I said earlier, being in a church as been a real struggle for me. Luckily I found a church that is caring and intelligently open minded. My partner and I are the only openly gay couple in the church, though, so it's a bit of a strain.
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Your sermon was thoughtful, caring and addressed many of the issues that gay people face in our society today. I was surprised by the compassion you expressed and was touched by what seemed to be a true concern for our gay brothers and sisters. When I first decided to read your sermon, I was expecting the conservative point of view. I had almost lost faith that any pulpit was still preaching that Jesus in fact welcomed all sinners and that He did not exclude anyone. In this day and age when the press provides so much coverage to the "Christian Right Wing" and we have men running for president that state that they would not allow any gays in their cabinet and the entire Republican field pledging to fight gay marriages you are a light in the dark. I will be printing this out and showing it to my wife ane will show my friends.
Thank you
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That is a sick, sick sermon.
You say that many gays would like to change. I believe you have no valid evidence for that. Certainly *some* would like to change, but usually it is because they find themselves oppressed by society, church, and family that do not accept them. Almost all of the gays I've personally met have no desire to change and I suspect that if the attitudes of others towards gays were to change, then very few gays would be interested in changing themselves. If I'm right, then you grossly distort the truth by preaching that "many" gays want to change.
The fundamental fact that the church needs to learn is that being gay and living as a gay person is neither unethical nor immoral. Living a gay life is not inherently hurtful to anyone; nor is it incompatible with devotion to God. Once the church accepts this fact, it can then deal with gay people as it deals with people generally. There won't be a special problem dealing with gays.
The church has a long history of bigotry. Its treatment of gays is just one of the chapters in that history.
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Dear Rev. Hess,
I want to thank you, first of all, for a very thoughtful sermon on a very difficult topic. Far too many Christians, by way of remaining "in the world but not of it," choose to live in ignorant fear (and hatred?) of open homosexuals and what it means to be gay. I so often find myself summoning the patience to remember that I, too, crave a "simple answer" much of the time--but you're right, there are none.
Well, that's not quite true.
There is one simple answer I've found, Pastor Hess. When asked "what is the greatest commandment," Jesus answered quite simply: Love. It doesn't get much more simple than that. And yet what a powerful answer! And how often we are given the opportunity to obey that commandment! In any and all of our dealings with one another--gay or straight--we are COMMANDED to LOVE one another. And that may mean going out of our way, becoming ritually unclean, and giving up our offering money to pay an innkeeper for his services until our return....
Pastor Hess, I've read your sermon and the addendum several times through, and I've spent most of today thinking about your points. And yet I can't get past one detail. You say that "the natural purpose of sex... is biological reproduction." This is indeed true. But would you be willing to say that the natural purpose of HUMANITY is biological reproduction? Are YOU sexually "distorted" because you have been given the gift of celibacy?
It strikes me odd that you, a heterosexual, should "grieve" for gays because they will never "be able to know the full complementary love of a person of the opposite sex." From my point of view as a homosexual, the love of a woman is not at all complementary. My spiritual and sexual being is complemented by interaction with my Companion, (deleted). Wouldn't it be silly of me to pity you because you'd never have the opportunity to fall in love with another man?
You say in your sermon that you see no evidence of homosexual orientation being a gift from God--"certainly absolutely no biblical warrant" are the words you've chosen. I wonder if you believe that only those elements of creation which are listed by name in the Genesis creation stories are "very good" in the sight of God? If indeed the human race began with two individuals, it is most essential that (a) there be both a man and a woman, and (b) they both be heterosexual. But Adam's sons did not look exactly like Adam, and Eve's daughters were not Eve. Are we so sure that homosexuality wasn't present in the world even in our earliest generations?
Your point is well made: babies born blind, pedophiles... even Adolph Hitler was part of God's creation. I can't pretend to see good in all of His workmanship. But I can put my trust in His promise that all things will work together for the good of those who love Him. And I know that, though my feelings of spiritual, social, and sexual attraction to (deleted) are certainly abnormal, in the strictest sociological sense, they are just as certainly no less a gift from God than if (deleted) were Marcia.
Your practical advice to gay Christians, to change, remain celibate, or at least monogamous, seems cruel in the light of your later comment that "all human love is to some degree distorted and perverted." If homosexual love is a sin--which I define as something which separates us from God and God's will for us as individuals--then it should be purged from our lives. If it is holy--that is, if it can bring us closer to God and God's will--then it should be embraced. Why--how--could a minister advise his flock to sin "if perfection doesn't work out"?
And why, if all of our love is sinful, must we "express [our] clear preference for heterosexuality"? Don't you see that by expressing a preference for one we cannot help but degrade the other? My preference for any human being is not for heterosexuality or for homosexuality per se, but rather for whatever gift of sexuality God has prepared for him or her--and I am in no position to read God's plan for another human being.
To your three models of Christian response, I'd like to add an alternate answer to the "problem" of homosexuality:
Because God has created us as humans in infinite variety, it is impossible to make a blanket "law" which will apply to all of His children. We must therefore consider each relationship on the basis of its spiritual consequences.
If in deepening relations with one another, two persons find themselves growing more healthy, more mature, and more able to focus on God, then I would offer blessings upon that relationship. That relationship should be recognized by the church as a holy and God-created union, and should receive all the prayers and support that the people of God have to offer it.
If, on the other hand, those two persons find it harder and harder to focus on the will of God, distracted by lust, envy, or anger; and if they have prayed about that relationship and feel confident that God is not present in the union, then I would offer my blessings to those two persons as individuals, and offer them my prayers as they journey onward separately.
It occurs to me that I've just spent quite a few paragraphs attacking the sermon I had intended to praise. I hope you can forgive my tone; my life for the past year or so has been rather difficult as I've tried to earn acceptance as an openly gay Christian on the staff of a church in a frequently closed-minded community. The frustration I must suppress when dealing with my colleagues sometimes erupts forth when I have an opportunity for honest dialogue.
If you have an opportunity and a desire for further dialogue, I hope you'll take a moment to respond to this message. If not, please know that I appreciate the work you do, and that I know it to be the work of the Lord. God bless you in your ministry.
with the Love of Christ,
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Rev. Hess,
I came across the posting of your sermon you had posted on the internet, and last revised on 2/22/96 concerning "No easy answers" for gay people, and I wanted to share my comments with you.
I am a 42 year old man, married for 16 years, with 4 wonderful children, aged 14, 10, 10, and 10. (yes, they are triplets). My wife and I recently got a divorce partially (she would say wholly) because of my confession to her last year that I had and affair with another married man (who happened to be a Church of Christ minister, by the way), and the fact that I had had feelings of sexual attraction for men before and throughout our marriage. She is not a believer. Our marriage was not originally established as it should have been on the foundation of faith. I have grown in my walk with God throughout our marriage, and had tried to bring my wife and my children along with me, setting a "good example" by being active in my church (mainline Methodist), in my job, and in our community. However, I have never been able to shake the longings and attractions I have had for other men, and unfortunately for our marriage, I acted on it. No amount of prayer kept the longings from being there. I feel now that God did in fact make me this way, just as he made black people black. I used to think it was something I could will away, or pray away, but that's just not the case. Being gay is simply a part of my being. I don't feel that I can be "cured" as many of the "ex-gay" proponents suggest, nor do I feel any less loved by God for it. I deal with a lot of guilt, but it is mainly due to the fact that I have had to deceive people for so long on my true self. I hold the highest administrative position in my church that the Methodist church allows--Chairman of the Administrative Board. For me to annouce the fact that I am a gay man would tear our church apart at this time. I am aware of comments by friends of mine, even in the Sunday School class that I teach, that "I will NOT go to church with queers!" I fear being found out for that reason, as well as what it would do to my children, who are at a very vulnerable age. I have learned what it is like to be a "minority" and I've been given a whole new perspective of how semmingly loving, caring Christian people can be anything but that when it comes to homosexuals. For that reason, I was pleasantly surprised to read your words, which reflected an understanding I was not expecting from a Baptist minister.
I have had time now to examine my feelings about my sexuality, and realize that I should have been honest with myself years ago, and instead of trying to make myself something I'm not, with the result being that I've potentially affected negatively not only my own life, but that of my wife, my precious children, my ex-lover and his wife and children, and all those people who respect me for someone they THINK I am. The responsibility for their attitude towards the faith rested in my hands, and to some extent, still does. I feel like I would be letting my Lord and my church down by "coming outa', but at the same time, I feel a compelling need to be honest with who I am to those Christian brothers and sisters whom I love. You are right when you say that gays may not be able to count on the support of their church as those who are discrimminated against because of race can---I'm sorry to say that, but I'm afraid it's true. Gays CAN and do, however, get support in gay friendly churches (of which at least in the Dallas area there are many), so I know all Christians are not judgemental. This point might need further exploration, if you want additional ideas for future revisions or sermons.
I apologize for this being such a rambling letter, but there are a jumble of ideas which constantly pop into my head about my sexual orientation. I am nowhere near settling it in my own mind yet, even with the help of Christian counseling, but I know that my faith in God is stronger now than it ever was before, and I give glory to Him for allowing me to finally admit, at least to Him and to myself if very few others, that I AM a gay man, and that the world is not going to come to an end because of it.
I appreciate your kind and understanding words more than you can imagine. If you wish, feel free to correspond and I would be happy to talk to you further about it.
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I really enjoyed reading your sermon.
I am a Christian. I am a homosexual. In that order. It is an endless struggle to keep God first. I believe the church's (the Body of Christ) worst enemy right now is the church itself. We (the church) are acting as modern-day Pharisees. I wonder how God feels as he looks out at any congregation and sees many with their spiritual masks on but behind those masks are adulterers, homosexuals, abusers, drug addicts. The Word says confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. No wonder the church is suffering. We hide for fear of being condemned by our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I have just finished teaching a 13-week course called PrayerLife at (deleted). Not one person knew of my struggle and God truly moved in that class.
I am involved with a man that I met at church. We have been together for two years and my spiritual life has dwindled. If I could find a man that I could pray and read the Bible together every night I believe God would bless that relationship. But I have found that to be futile. I noticed you did not mention spiritual warfare in your sermon. The enemy bombards us on every front.
He turns any attempt my partner and I make to live a righteous and godly life into something dirty.
The Lord truly has blessed me in the last four years. I am involved in an AIDS ministry. We base the ministry on the Good Samaritan. The Samaritan did not ask the man in the street if he was gay-bashed or if it was a drug deal gone bad. He simply gave him food, medical assistance, transportation, and a place to stay. Of course this ministry is not in the Southern Baptist church I attend. I asked if they would start one. NO ANSWER.
Some of the most sincere Christians I have met are people struggling with homosexuality. They are humbled, cling to every word of God, and have sincere heart. They have been through battle. They do not lose heart. Though outwardly they are wasting away, inwardly they are renewed day by day.(2 Corith 4:16-18)
Pleas write back your sentiments.
P.S.
If you have a mailing list, I would love to be added.
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Good to find your message on the web. Since many of us have a bit of information to add, I thought that I would reply.
I was born into a good Christian family, went to Bible College, went out into the world, came back to The Lord.
When I was a young teen-ager and reading a Christian book on sex, I discovered that I fit the description of "homosexual." For many months thereafter, I wept bitterly, fasted and prayed and pulled out my hair. I said, "Lord, take this from me and give me cancer in it's place." He never did. Later on, in Bible College He , through devine intervention, caused my engagement to a young lady to break up. It would have never worked. She deserved better. In bitterness, I went out into the world where I found out that there were many others like me. I had my relationships, long and short term. I figured that since I was going to hell anyway, I might as well enjoy life. In time I became discouraged with a lifestyle that was doomed to failure from the start. I bagan to search for Jesus and discovered that He was there with me all the while. He may not have gone into some of the bars and places with me, but He sure was waiting for me outside.
In 1978 I was teaching a Bible study for new Christian gays, in (deleted). I had not yet decided on a celabate life. I was familiar with a Gay church called M.C.C., but I could not agree with them that Christianity and promiscuity can co-exist. One day, as I was running along the coast highway, I was hit by a car. Almost every bone in my body was broken. There was no hope for me to live. My family didn't know where I was for three days. My identification had become lost. I was "John Doe," unconcious in a hospital in (deleted).
Jesus knew who I was, and where I was. He was there with me, and I with Him. After several weeks I woke up, still in very grave condidtion, but aglow with the joy of the Lord. The only thing that I talked about was Jesus, He who is pure love. I tried to introduce every one of my doctors to Him.I asked each of them to accept Him as their Savior. They all thought I had brain damage. Since Jesus was right there in the room with me, I took the hand of each of my family members with the one hand that I could move, and prayed long prayers for each of them. I was with my God who is love personified, and for several years thereafter, I became very loving like He is.
I am 56 now and I am a celabate homosexual. I say I am homosexual because, " a rose by any other name is still a rose." I have always been a masculine man, and even more so now. Though I am crippled, I am much stronger mentally and physically, than many of the heterosexual men in my church, thus I am able to minister strength to many of them. I am blessed by doing so.
"NO EASY ANSWERS" For many years I surely thought that by the time I reached 56, some answers would have come, but they haven't Just more questions. I know that Jesus died for everyone and if I remain faithful, I am going with Him, but what about the "effeminate." Does this mean that Richard Simmons doesn't stand a chance? Should gay men marry women? (Ask Kathy Lee Gifford about her life with ex-husband Paul Johnson) Doesn't a straight woman deserve a man that appreciates her body?
I have suffered throughout my life, and still suffer greatly. Even as I watch old reruns of "The Waltons" on the Family channel, and I see each Walton child growing up and, sure enough, they each receive that "spark" of attraction to the opposite sex right on schedule, I wonder what they are feeling, I wonder what this is like, and I suffer, I suffer, I suffer.
One night I listened to Dr. Jimmy Allen speak about his book, "Burden of a Secret" He said that when his Christrian friends and congregation found out the secret about his family, they abandoned him. He said, "instead of perfect love casting out fear, fear had cast out perfect love." I guess that says it all. God bless you.
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Dear David,
I read your article with great interest. Thank you for NOT giving us the pat, smug, self-righteous, usual "Christian" answers. I can't take the time right now to tell you my whole story, but I will tell you briefly ... if you're interested I can tell you more. I am 52, divorced for over 20 years, I raised my two sons as a single parent - when they were 6 and 7 years old respectively. They are now both married and one has three children. I became a Christian at the age of 32 - two years after our marriage broke up. I live the next twenty years entirely celibate. I had always known that I had homosexual feelings - in fact I've never been sexually attracted to women at all. I fell deeply in love with my wife as a person - and in many ways am still in love with her (we remain friends). Just less than a year ago, I began a correspondence with gay men on the Internet. Eventually I met with a man in (deleted) and had my first homosexual experience. This led me to begin exploring the "gay scene" here in (deleted). I attended the gay church once or twice, I joined a couple of groups. Then I met a young man (31 yrs) and fell in love once again. This is the second time in my life I have "fallen in love" and I am unable to tell the difference in my emotions between the two times.
I guess the thing that mostly startled me was this: I had struggled all my life against giving in to the homosexual urges that I felt. Once I became a Christian, I struggled all the more, since the church taught that homosexuality is sinful. When I finally "gave in" to the temptation last May, I fully expected that I would be entering a place of sin and alienation from God. I almost expected to get Aids immediately ... probably thinking to myself that it would "serve me right." HOWEVER, what I discovered was that as I stepped through the door into this dark room called Homosexuality, I was greeted by Jesus Christ. There he was shedding his light into the darkest places of my soul.
I have found my walk with Christ to be closer and deeper since taking this step. Does this mean that Jesus actually approves of homosexuality? That he sees it not just as "not sinful" but as actually Good? I don't know the answer to that. All I can testify to is that my experience has been fulfilling sexually, emotionally, and spiritually. This obviously does not mean that it is the same for everyone. I can only speak about what I know. What I know is the overwhelming and unconditional love which God in Christ has for me and for all people.
THAT is the message I come away from this experience with. I am profoundly concious that far too many Christians devote their energies to condemning what other people DO, instead of proclaiming the fact that God LOVES them. I cannot judge another person (no matter what proof-texts you can find in scripture), and therefore my job is simply to fulfill the Great Commission - make the whole world into Christ's disciples. I believe that the North American church has totally lost it's way. It has become materialistic and lost it's compassion.
In the early days, Christians were the ones who "turned the world upside down". But now Christians have become "respectable," and are the ones who are disturbed by changes to the status quo. We need to be turned upside down again. Understanding the true nature of God's love will revolutionize our lives as people of God.
Anyway, what I wanted to tell you was that in your effort to be sensitive to gay people, you seem not to credit us with any validity to our own feelings. I can tell you that what I feel is GOOD. I am not concious of sin or falling away from God. I AM concious of the presence of God very closely to me.
By the way, many of the gay men I know have children and grandchildren. The young man who is my lover has absolutely NO desire to raise children, and NO desire whatever to know the "complementary love of a person of the opposite sex." There may be those who "grieve that they can never have children," but I have never met any. Indeed I have met far more unmarried women who grieve for that reason.
Also I take issue with your statement that the "natural purpose of sex" is biological reproduction." You only have to think for a moment about the nature of sexual intercourse between two human beings to see that it if far more than a means of procreation. They are face to face in a way that promotes communication. In fact, I believe that the PURPOSE of sexual relationships between people is to break down the barriers, enabling them to be honest, open and loving towards one another.
Producing babies, it seems to me, is a side-benefit. I think we got it all backwards. If we REALLY thought that sex was about procreation, then we would disapprove of sex even within marriage except for the production of babies - so the Pope would be right! Away with contraception!
Once we can say that sex is about a loving relationship between two people, then we cannot say too much about the genders involved. I really don't think anything in scripture really addresses this issue. Nor should it. People thought for years that the Bible stated that the world was created in 4004 BC - and that Science was WRONG. But the Bible isn't meant to be a science text book either. The Bible is meant for ONE purpose only - to introduce us to Jesus Christ. Once a person meets Christ in person, what happens after that is between Jesus and the individual - it is not for you nor I to say how that person should live. God is the ultimate judge - I am not equipped to do so. Yet, of course, we all love to tittle and tattle and gossip and judge - it is a part of our fallen nature. THAT is sin, sex is not. Yet, like all human behaviour, it can be sinful, as you say, everything we do, feel and say is tinged with sinfulness.
I said I wouldn't write too much, and I seem to be going on at some length. Sorry about that.
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I read your sermon: "Gays---No Easy Answers" with great interest. I was expecting to be offended, and wasn't. I am a 24 year old lesbian, a Quaker, and am married to my partner of 3 years. Of course our marriage is not recognized by the state, but we did have the ceremony at the Quaker meeting house, with all of my family in attendance, including my granmothers and one surviving grandfather. I'm not sure why I am giving you this detail about my life...probably because you seem to have taken the time to honestly think about sexuality, and even though I don't agree with everything in your sermon, it is the fairest baptist sentiment on homosexuality I have come across. My marriage, my relationship, and my family, are the things dearest to me. I guess I tell you about them because it is the best way I know of returning the gift you have given by not jumping in with pat condemnation that hurts gay and lesbian people and deems all heterosexual people to be incapable of sin. It is relieving to hear a christian sound like one, and call for understanding, and (at least some form) of acceptance and equal rights, instead of calling for the demonization of other fellow people. Unfortunately, I have heard too many times that all gays and lesbians should be stoned to death. Unfortunately, I have heard my community and culture scapegoated for the destruction of family values. Unfortunately, this is often done in the name of God and of Jesus Christ. As my mother said to a neighbour of hers: "The God I know, the Christ I know, never taught me to hate and be violent in his name."
In case you are curious about what I disagree with in your sermon (although I'm sure you can guess, and have heard it form others) I don't like the idea of being grieved for because I am a lesbian. Pity is so condescending, and can be so insulting. I would never look at a heterosexual person whose marriage is not as strong as my own, and give them pity. I can not give pity to a person who is blind either. To me, it seems that pity is along the same line as judgement, and it is not my job to judge, or pity, or condemn--or for that matter-- to exonerate. We are all responsible for our actions, our thoughts, our selves, our choices. We are all here together. I thank you for being responsible in your analysis of homosexuality. I am a happy woman, a spiritual woman, a kind woman...so far from the demon people would often like to paint me simply because I love a woman, and am committed to sharing my life with her so we can grow together.
So it seems, that though you and I have differing leaps of faith, different faiths, and different cultures, we can communicate. I am glad of that.
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I just read your sermon on an "alternative" Christian approach to homosexuality. I think it is beautiful and well-reasoned. I disagree with some of your statements, but agree with so many others. I am an openly gay, 28-year old attorney in (deleted). I live with a wonderful man, (deleted), in a monogamous, truly blessed relationship. Coming out was the most fortunate and intelligent, and probably most courageous, move I've ever made. Your statements about how gays must feel facing such awful ostracism were right on the money. I cannot tell you how difficult it is to be gay -- how terribly horrific it is to face the bigotry and hatredthat we face from so many, even (most painfully) our own families. If we could change our sexual orientations, I'm afraid many of us would. Just as many African-Americans, sadly, would opt to be white if given a choice. The worst hatred, the most painful bigotry, has come from those who call themselves Christian. I am a Christian. I believe I live a Christian life. I treat everyone as well as I would hope they would treat me, and I try to emulate Jesus in my dealings with others. Why, however, is it that gay men and lesbians like me are treated as categorically evil? Perhaps it is that we need a significant reformulation of the view that homosexuality is per se immoral. I believe it is not. I am moral. There is nothing immoral or dishonest about my relationship with my partner. We love each other. We support one another. And while at times we wonder how it would be like to lead a heterosexual life, partaking in the gift of procreation, we have concluded that we are psychologically and perhaps organically incapable of leading such a life. We are, therefore, trying to do the best with what we have and acknowledge love where we have it. How is that immoral?
Thank you again.
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I read your piece about homosexuality and I certainly feel your struggle and the writing, again, resurrected my own struggle. Although you tried to fairly provide analogies that may speak to the struggle, you, like many, left the basic challenge unanswered. I would encourage you to rethink two areas. One, the idea that Jesus had nothing to say, specifically,about homosexuality and, two, the notion that because there is perversion in heterosexuality, homosexual perversion is more understandable.
I think it is dangerous to make even moderate conclusions on what Jesus did not say. Really, he may have said something, it just was not caught by the writers. One would beg the question, why did the writers not catch or record a statement of Jesus? Perhaps, most of what was caught and recorded was the most controversial, that which was brought into conflict with the "norm" of the day. Homosexuality could have been commonly understood, among Jesus and the writers, as not acceptable, period, even though it was rampant. Jewish law was strongly against it, Jesus did not come to change the law. Of course the obvious argument, here, is to deliver slight, if any, credence to other popular behavior of today simply because Jesus said nothing about it then. Much if not all of what Jesus said has to be projected on the backdrop of the law in operation at the time. Many drug users have used the "Jesus didn't say not to smoke pot" theory to support their unhealthy, self-destructive behavior. We understand that doing so is not loving yourself.
The other reflection that evidence of heterosexual perversion is supportive of homosexual perversion is simply saying that we are in a fallen state. The fact that we are does not excuse behavior that is displeasing to God. There would be little need for the church if this were not so. Our sin is reconciled in nothing less than Jesus' sacrifice for us, not in how much other sin there is in the world or our lives. Sin does not excuse sin. Jesus excuses sin. Therein lies the real question here, is homosexuality sin? Is it a behavior that separates one from God? I think so. In part, this conclusion comes out of what I feel those who struggle with this issue overlook, conversation with those who have "crossed over". 100% of former homosexuals who now have freedom from such have shared with me that it is a sin. Who would know that best than they? More vehemently, they would also praise those who did not pat them on the back, in an acceptance of pop culture way, and show false love by trying to figure them out instead of speaking boldly against the sin, as one would any other oppressed state of sinfulness. Too often the image I get is one of talking about the challenge and not to the challenge.
Thanks for the time.
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David,
I saw your article on the Internet, and wanted to make a few comments...
First, let me give you a few details about myself. I'm 29, male, gay, and came out to myself about 6 months ago. (I really knew I was gay a long time before that, but I denied it.) I am out only to my sister and a close female friend. My parents do not know, nor do I plan to tell them.
The "moral aspect" of being gay really bothered me. I felt for a long time that being gay was wrong, that my feelings were wrong, and basically, evil. There is no doubt that in MY church (Baptist), I would be considered a pervert and "corrupted".
Many of your comments really hit close to home:
1. My parents (if they knew), would probably tell me to pray for God to change me. As you said, although He could, He probably woould not. (In fact, I did pray about this, but nothing changed...)
2. I also thought, what kind of life is THIS? I can't change the way I feel, but I thought that being a good Christian was incompatible with being gay.
3. Remaining celebate is NOT a realistic choice for me; I want a relationship.
4. I DO regret that children will not be possible for me... an unforunate limitation.
So, many of the comments you made I could relate to.
I think you have stated, concisely, the dilema we face: that there ARE no simple answers. I learned this months ago. What I basically decided was that the struggle is probably what is important. I hope so.
I should point out that I am NOT a great Christian: I go to church regularly, I believe that Christ is my personal savior, I am saved, but I do not read the Bible consistently, and to tell the truth, since I came out, I have gone to church less than before. I still struggle. And since I came out, and since I have met other gay people, it is clear that I will probalby continue to meet others. I am happier now than I have ever been. I am at last HONEST with myself, and it is wonderful. But I wonder what the price of being happier is sometimes. I think that the struggle with homosexuality has weakened my relationship with God. I don't even pray as much as I used to. I often fell like a hypocrite...
That is why I so enjoyed that end of your essay. "I'm not okay, and you're not okay. But that's okay... The cross is the place you can come when you have exhausted all the simple answers... Christ is there... He will not turn you away..." I cried when I read that.
I do not know what the future holds. But your essay has made me think again about this. Thank you.
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Sir, I read your sermon and do recognize the sincerity you put forth in trying to show yourself as a loving, accepting human being. Although your argument is not completely offensive (as most dynamically religious people tend to be), I believe that you are making several generalizations that simply are not true. The images you paint of homosexuals are, to me absurd. I think that you must have no real knowledge of what it is like to be gay. I am the reknowned expert compared to you. I live my life as an openly gay woman, both to my family and to the public. I am in no way immoral. I am a humanitarian; I believe in loving everyone. There is no exclusion when it comes to my love for people. I spend every day crying for people, hoping that their lives can somehow be influenced and that they can see the reality of how things are. I do not hate myself, because I do not know the meaning of that word. I love. That's it. I live my life according to the Golden Rule, the only important thing most of us have ever learned in our lives. I treat others with respect, even if they are not deserving of my respect.
I think that your imagery of a promiscuous homosexual is, in no way, accurate. I am an active part of the gay community, so I know the way that people feel about promiscuity. It is even less acceptable than in the general population. I live in a monogamous relationship with another woman, who I have taken to be my wife forever. We share a home, love, money, bills, food, time, etc. Is this so different than any marriage between a man and a woman that you have ever heard of? I will never repent living a rich life, giving all of my energy to helping people, and never denying myself the love that every human deserves to have.
On the issue of procreation: I am going to have children. As is my wife. We will have children, and raise them together. My best friend is a gay man who would like to have children, as well. Another friend of ours is in the same position. There you have it, a family with four parents instead of two. If two parents can offer a lot of love to their children, imagine how much love four parents can offer to them.
I think that the problem in your sermon is basically one of ignorance of the gay community. You should have invited those men to church. By failing to do so, you were failing to witness to them the word of God, i.e. failing to do the job you were chosen to do. One of the Ten Commandments is to love thy neighbor. By failing to invite them, you were showing absolutely no love for your neighbor. How can you love yourself if you don't love others? I would feel guilty about that, but I don't expect you to, because you don't subscribe to unconditional love by preaching that my love is a sin. I think you should get to know some gay people, it may make your sermon a little more understanding. We're not all that bad, and we don't all have AIDS. I would really like to hear a response from you on what I have said.
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I enjoyed reading your sermon on the subject of homosexuality. I commend you for your compassion and mercy to those who are struggling with this problem. However, I must strongly disagree with you on the point you made in regards to homosexuals being involved in a monogamous relationship if celibacy was too dificult. The apostle Paul makes the point in Romans 1:24,26 that homosexuality is not tolerated as an action by God. I agree with you that this is a difficult subject matter in regards to compassion, but the fact of the matter is that God clearly points to homosexuality being sin in this passage. This is the basis for my disagreement with you on the monogamy issue.
Sin is sin. There is no way to argue this point. We as humans have the choice to agree with God and call sin sin, or we can rationalize away the God-given conviction and choose to follow our own desires. This leaves us with no other option than to call homosexuality a sin. This stated, I don't think it possible for a homosexual to become a Christian yet continue to live in sin by practicing homosexuality; regardless of how difficult it may be. (I don't think you were arguing that it isn't sin but I am just seting up my argument and trying not to leave any room for doubt in where I stand). Paul also argues this in Romans 6 when he states, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Also in Galatians 2:20 he remarks, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." This shows that as Christians we cannot continue to live in sin because we are dead to sin. Not only are we dead to sin, but Christ lives in us so we cannot continue to "walk" in sin.
I would side with the conservative argument that you laid out in your sermon, in that if someone comes to faith in Christ then they have to repent (turn) of their sins and walk in obedience to God. I realize this is very idealistic and simplified, but the fact if the matter is that God's Word says, "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us."
The last comment I wanted to make is about Christ and his compassion. Jesus Christ was very compassionate on peole who were genuine and who genuinely did not know him. He was not however, compassionate on those that knew him and knew what was required of them yet continued to walk in sin. I see us as having the same responsibility. I am to have compassion on people that do not know the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior; whether homosexual or heterosexual, drug-addict or goody-goody. I am not however to have compassion on a member of the body that continues to walk in (practice) a certain sin. (Maybe I should have used "tolerance" in the preceeding sentence). This is a blatant disregard for the statutes of God.
Again, I really enjoyed reading your sermon and felt you made alot of good points. You challenged me in my understanding of homosexuals and the Lord used it to convict me of my attitude towards these list people. If any of this is unclear, or if you want me to elaborate on any of the points, please don't hesitate to respond.
May the Lord bless you and your ministry.
In Him,
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Mr. Hess:
One day while surfing the Net I came across your sermon, "Gays---No Easy Answers..." I was particularly interested since my own church is going through the process of declaring ourselves an "Open and Affirming" church. Other congregations sometimes call this "reconciling," but essentially they are struggling with the issue of admitting and accepting into their congregation persons of homosexual orientation as well as welcoming persons regardless of gender, able-ness, ethnicity, social class, economic class, etc, etc.
Your sermon was thought-provoking to me since I grew up in a fundamental church and am a gay man in a committed relationship with another man. A long-term relationship of some 17 years. I very much would like to dialogue, as much as possible and by the limitations of e-mail, about your sermon. I note you welcome response.
I am NOT a Biblical scholar in the sense that I studied for the ministry, but I have grown up with it and graduated from a college whose center was church and Christian based. Over the years I have had to struggle with the issue of homosexuality as sin, gift, or trick of God. I hope my insights will be of assistance to you.
"The Conservative Response"
As I see it this view is extremely popular in our churches and in our society. And having been raised with this view I understand, or at least think I understand, the justification for it. Many believe in the myth, "God said, I believe it, and that settles it." But as a growing Christian we must also explore the reasons God said it. Often what we take literally in context today had an entirely different meaning for those who wrote and heard it yesterday. Only recently I learned that for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle did not refer to our definition of needle, but to the Biblical definition. That is, the entry into the Holy City after the gates had been closed. Here is where I really began to wonder if we (a conservative community) had missed the boat on interpretation.
"The Progressive Response"
I agree that many, if not all, gay persons wished they could change their orientation. However, I do not necessarily agree it's because of a cruel trick by God. I think it because we as gay persons do feel we belong to the norm. When I was growing up no one ever told me it was "wrong" to be gay. I sensed it was not the "norm" or the accepted. In your Addendum you seem to support this view although you do state, "The truth is, all of us, straight and gay, know fundamentally that the natural purpose of sex, though not the only one, is biological reproduction."
I disagree. The purpose of sex, gay and straight, is to be intimately joined with another human. For some heteorsexuals, granted, the majority, is to reproduce. However, we demean countless heteorsexual couples who CHOOSE not to reproduce and burden countless more who desire to and cannot. "A man shall leave his mother and a woman leave her home and travel on to where the two shall be one." It does not say "...to where the two shall become three." I know, it also does not say that two of the same sex shall....However, I wish to approach that argument at another time. Since I think it's a subject unto itself. "The Moderate Response"
This is the view you are "most comfortable with." Why? Do we ever ask people of color, "We know you would rather be white, but if you can't BE white, then at least, ACT white. And if you can't to that then be as moral (like a white person) as you can?!?! My view is we, a community of sinners, need to find the myths and misinterpretations and downright lies we have come to believe from the Bible. We must seek truth. Our own personal world view might be...One man, one woman, two children, but where in the Bible did we ever get that notion. And because the Bible is an historical guide as well as a moral guide then we MUST find and understand the truth about its origin. We, as a church body, should be encouraging gay and straight relatlionships to be monogamous and then our churches and our families (however you define them) and then our communities will be stronger. It's not easy being monogamous for anyone, but it's a lot easier when we do it together.
These, Mr. Hess, are my thoughts. I understand, as I am sure you do, that it is easy to confuse words and meanings when they are written. I hope you will take this into consideration. I am helping my church learn what it really is to be gay and to be welcomed into the church. The process has not been frustrating for me, though my straight friends have experienced frustration. Just as we are called to tell the world about Jesus, I am convinced we also are to tell the world about love and justice. And I learned long ago its a slow process usually done one person at a time.
Thank you for you time. I look forward to your response. I do understand, that, as a busy pastor in a busy church, your time is limited. But I hope we can enjoy some healthy dialogue and debate.
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i appreciate and am sympathetic to your desire to find a middle way, a way that takes the bible seriously but also actively seeks to reach out in ministry to gays.
in my experience though, i have never talked to a "gay christian" who takes the scriptures seriously. they generally focus on "the sermon on the mount-type" words of jesus and leave out "i came not to bring peace but a sword", and anything else they don't like. the moral teachings of the ot are held as passe' ("you don't avoid garments of mixed fabric do you?"). an old christian friend who uncloseted himself a few years back wants nothing to do with his old christian friends. has anyone ever responded to what you say in the essay ("to gays i say....")?
i fear the polarization will only get worse as activist gays succeed more and more with their legislative/judicial agenda (ie romer v.evans)
enjoyed your essay. thanks and best wishes,
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After just reading your sermon on homosexuality, you have given me a completely new image of myself. I remember as far back as grade school being attracted of members of the same sex and used to look in the mirror feeling disgusted about myself. I felt like I had done something really dirty although it was just an attraction and prayed to God every night to "change" me. Finally, at 17 years of age, I discovered that my best friend was gay and we ended partying alot although not any different then regular teenagers. By then, I had had this view of myself as a complete outcast and thought "if I'm already this much a sinner, then it won't matter what kind of life I lead".
Now, I am 23years of age and have a different outlook. I know that I didnt choose this and I also know that I have found the person that I want to be with for the rest of my life, and no one can make me believe that I am doing anything wrong morally because of it. I do believe that I can still prove myself in the eyes of God without pretending to be somebody that I am not.
Thank You.
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I feel so relieved from reading this sermon. I have been feeling so alienated from my Christian "family" due to their extreme hatred and lack of compassion for homosexuals. I am a relatively new Christian but neccessity has made me grow rather quickly. But today, I just got fed up at some of the viewpoints that I as 'suppose' to have. I asked the Lord, "Is there something wrong with me, that I don't see things the same way as others?" I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I don't think it is a greater sin that others, i.e., adultery, stealing, drug-dealing (all the things I carry from my past). Yet, homosexuals get this special "don't you dare enter our church" routine. I wonder if people realize that the 3 most influential men in the bible where murderers? Anyways, it was refreshing to read this to know that I can have compassion for these folks.